Starter motor upgrade

[xboxrox]

WARNING ~ The following information is my personal guess work ONLY & nothing has been tested to fit or operate correctly on any vehicle yet... My truck an 86 Dodge Power Ram50 manual transmission ~ the following info is focused on my g54b engine, also named Astron engine & 4G54 engine...

BACKGROUND ~ I am comfortable bidding on vehicles & parts both online & at live auctions, been there & done it... I just bought a starter motor for my truck at this auction: https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucdsclnk?sl=31QSCI21145012 and I don't even know for sure if it will fit ~ heck, I don't even know if I will ever need another starter ~ but, this auction part is a better starter than the original Direct Drive starter, this one is a PMGR (permanent magnet gear reduction) type starter motor

AUCTION STARTER PHOTOS
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WEB PAGE FOR THE AUCTION STARTER ~ https://www.robertsandson.com/rs-130-00114.html
I spoke with the Robertson & Son phone rep and he said this starter is not made by Mitsubishi but to replace parts on Mitsubishi equipped vehicles forklifts and the like ~ he didn't even know who made it or where it's made ~ think Made-in-China Korea Mexico anywhere but USA (?)

DD STARTER MOTOR IDENTIFICATION PHOTO (typical DD direct drive type on our trucks & less powerful than a PMGR motor) yet physically larger & heavier.

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=26234&stc=1

WEB PAGE FOR HELP INFO ~ https://www.808starters.net/home.html
I spoke with phone rep Kale he said you can go up 2 teeth on the starter pinion gear when going from DD to PMGR motors ~ he also told me how to identify a direct drive motor by it's it's field winding buttons ~ my truck has the DD starter motor ~ I might try installing the PMGR motor when it arrives or whenever...

DD MOTOR WITH FIELD WINDINGS (telltale buttons)
http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=26235&stc=1

PLAN ~ Keep you guys informed of any new discoveries especially if this thing fits & works :thumbup: I looked at the starter on my truck today and it is a lower powered DD type (direct drive) you can tell by the buttons around the motor case ~ the rebuilt starters from NAPA & O'Reilly's are DD direct drive starters

UPGRADE ~ One MR50 member (pennyman? or?) has stated that a Starion starter motor will fit the g54b 2.6L engine ~ perhaps it's a PMGR motor..?

Bye for Now GOT ANY INPUT ?

:wrench:
Will it fit & do I need it..? Who NOoooooooooz

[geezer101]

How many teeth on the throw out gear? There is a difference between manual and auto starter motors AFAIK and the reason why everybody has problems with replacement starters grinding or not meshing properly.

[xboxrox]

Thanks for the question geezer man ~ this auction starter has 8 teeth on it's gear but I don't know it's diameter or if it will mesh properly ~ interestingly NAPA & OReilly's sell 8 teeth type but other web sites list our starters with 9 teeth ~ this is gonna be EXPERIMENTAL :chimp:

[geezer101]

8 tooth throw out 'should' be the one for manual transmission. Mitsubishi made it confusing with starter motor and ring gear combos...

[xboxrox]

Today sent a UPS shipping label to the govt organization selling the starter ~ estimated arrival 3/18 and ground shipping cost was $72.00 typical for an 8 lbs box L13" H7" W7" it's being shipped in it's original box ~ could mean it's an unused part ~ I paid $35.00 to win the bid + the shipping is $107.00 right? The remanf DD starters from NAPA & O'Reillys are with tax yada near $80.00 with a one month minimum wait, none on island...

I found this YouTube video helpful to understand more about what makes starter motors tick: https://youtu.be/kFsl5r34lCI

I emailed Roberts & Sons asking if installation instructions shims etc are available...

Autozone sells a new starter that could be (?) a PMGR starter ~ their website says it fits Mitsubishi Starion & Mighty Max & Dodge Ram 50 ~ Notice the reviewer's vehicle is a 1988 Dodge Ram50 ~ I checked if it fit a Range Rover 'n the answer was DOES NOT FIT ~
Autozone Starter: https://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting-and-charging/starter/duralast-gold-new-starter-dlg5168/120394_0_0


:sleeping:

tortron
:tmi:
but I like it
:yeahthat:

[tortron]

heres some 1st gen info i have

Starter M/T suit LO21P all
MD034121 starter assy (0.7kw Z=8)
clutch overrun part number MD607283

Starter M/T suit LO22G (all) LO22P (FSL2) LO23P (NUL2)
MD027400 Starter assy (0.9kw z=8)
clutch overrun part number MD607283



Starter A/T suit LO22P (KSL2) LO23P (KUL2)
MD027382 starter assy (R1.2)
pinion set MD607545



Starter (4G3..CZ)
suit LO21P all
MD027400 starter assy (0.9kw z=8)
clutch overrun MD607283

Starter (4G5..CZ)
suit LO22G all
MD027382
pinion set MD607545

[pennyman1]

PMGR starters were usually used on automatic trucks and starquests. They can be used with manual trucks with the proper bendix on the starter, and will work well spinning the 2.6. as long as the snout is the same length and the bendix matches the truck starter - it will work fine.

[xboxrox]

Thanks for chiming IN pennyman :thumbup:

[xboxrox]

Got Mail today ~ the GSA Auctions Starter Motor arrived today ~ looks new & unused (+) has Mitsubishi symbols (+ or -) could be China knock off ~ the CW 8 teeth pinion same as oem part (+) don't know if it will fit though (-) experiment project winning bid $35.00 shipping $70.00 ~ weighs about 7lbs looks smaller than whats on the truck ~ gotta comparison measure next (doubt any oem starters on the island NAPA no O'Reilly's no) will need to glean dimensions from the internet BUT I have learned & notice that specification data for the same part is often different depending on the store webpage
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[finalfighter]

that starter should fit. i have compared the large case starter that goes on the Manuel with the small body case for the auto and they mount up the same and have the same gear and everything. if your truck is Manuel it will have the larger body starter on it. i have both laying around. i can take pics if you are curious. also, if you are looking for cheep starters and cant find one for the mighty max you can use hyundia part # 00228-Y9100. those starters work too.

[xboxrox]

that starter should fit. i have compared the large case starter that goes on the Manuel with the small body case for the auto and they mount up the same and have the same gear and everything. if your truck is Manuel it will have the larger body starter on it. i have both laying around. i can take pics if you are curious. also, if you are looking for cheep starters and cant find one for the mighty max you can use hyundia part # 00228-Y9100. those starters work too.

Super Info Fighter, thanks..! If you have the old larger starter, I am very curious to know how much it weighs; a decent weight savings might be enuff reason to justify taking this experiment all the way to installation & testing... I just weighed this new PMGR starter, it is 6.5 lbs ~ I goggled the Hyundai Part # and the diagram shows it's also a PMGR starter ~ QUESTION do you know if a new Hyundai starter is Made by Mitsubishi or..?

Oh Oh ?? The two mounting holes are not threaded on this forklift starter need check my truck asap

You're a BIG HELP :thumbup:
Aloha ~ George

[finalfighter]

my bathroom scale may be off a bit but while holding the large case i weighed 200.6lbs. while holding the small case i was 198.6lbs. without either of them im 190. so it looks like the larger case starter is ~2.5lbs heavier. it does FEEL heavier too.

[finalfighter]

i should mention that the starters i measured where oem off my trucks. the small case one is slightly different along the body than the forklift one you got so it will change the weight slightly. the oem mitsu is the same length and all but they just used more steel than aluminum for the housing. its just a material difference, not a dimensional one.

[xboxrox]

i should mention that the starters i measured where oem off my trucks. the small case one is slightly different along the body than the forklift one you got so it will change the weight slightly. the oem mitsu is the same length and all but they just used more steel than aluminum for the housing. its just a material difference, not a dimensional one.

Thanks for posting fighter ~ I did not look at my truck's starter today BUT this new farm equipment/forklift/implement PMGR starter has no threads in the two mounting holes & I'm thinking threads are needed ~ gotta peek at the situation soon BUT today I was occupied getting the #2 Moderna covid vaccination @ the VA Hospital in Honolulu ~ Left arm getting sore tonight just like the Right arm did on #1 jab & overall day 2 and 3 have a feeling of fatigue 'n a little feeling of soreness all over ~ no biggie yet ~ funny musta hit a nerve on the Right arm coz the injection hurt 'n burned going in BUT today the nurse jabbed & I did not feel a damn thing..! She said they use 25 gauge size needles which are the most common size for vaccinations ~ heck I know more about shots than starters (not really)
:pistoldouble:

[xboxrox]

my bathroom scale may be off a bit but while holding the large case i weighed 200.6lbs. while holding the small case i was 198.6lbs. without either of them im 190. so it looks like the larger case starter is ~2.5lbs heavier. it does FEEL heavier too.

My wife almost slapped me coz I was too dumb to hold the starter while weighing myself ~ I put it on the bath scale 'n grumbled the damn scale don't work DUH ~ she helps a lot

[xboxrox]

Scoped out the existing starter on the truck today & it does have internal threads in the two mounting flanges ~ the tractor/forklift starter flanges are similar in thickness & drilled so they can be threaded too ~ no OEM starter on the island to compare on a workbench, might have to remove the existing starter to see if all else is samo samo besides the thread issue ~ ugh..! finalfighter do you have a stock starter with the threaded flanges & if so, maybe you'd be willing 'n able to do some measuring on it for me..? Check out the 2020 Ford Ranger truck compared to a gen1 Mitsubishi 4X4

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[finalfighter]

ill get those for you shortly. i dont have the large body one that goes on the 86 and under, just the 87 and up but they mount the same. i am having trouble with uploading pics but ill see what i can do.

[xboxrox]

ill get those for you shortly. i dont have the large body one that goes on the 86 and under, just the 87 and up but they mount the same. i am having trouble with uploading pics but ill see what i can do.

Thanks but don't waste your precious time on my crapola unless you happen to be doing some tinkering near your parts anyway & you're feeling super energetic, in the mood and all that kinda neat stuff !

I think there might be enuff thread length sticking out on the mounting bolt that a thread pitch gauge might be capable of measuring those threads ~ I can check if Hardware Hawaii has a gauge, they are just across the street from me ~ trouble is can't get an eyeball very close to the starter while under the hood

[claych]

Great timing on this xbox :thumbup: & thx finalfighter!

I have been procrastinating on My starter replacement - pole type...
So I went to my electrical builder and - "hey can I swap this starter for a pm style?,
don't know if it will work but I will pay your time to find out, if it does work I will pay
the difference in cost".
Survey says
http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=26324&stc=1

M8 X1.25 :)

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=26325&stc=1

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=26326&stc=1

Builder compared drive, mount holes , nose cone depth, solenoid connections, all the same !!
Differences--- about 26mm longer, 28mm or so narrower, and much lighter!!
woo-hoo!!
Update after installation,
Thx again for the leg work Gents!!

[xboxrox]

Great timing on this xbox :thumbup: & thx finalfighter!

I have been procrastinating on My starter replacement - pole type...
So I went to my electrical builder and - "hey can I swap this starter for a pm style?,
don't know if it will work but I will pay your time to find out, if it does work I will pay
the difference in cost".
Survey says


M8 X1.25 :)



http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=26326&stc=1

Builder compared drive, mount holes , nose cone depth, solenoid connections, all the same !!
Differences--- about 26mm longer, 28mm or so narrower, and much lighter!!
woo-hoo!!
Update after installation,
Thx again for the leg work Gents!!

Hey THANK YOU for your leg work too claych 8 X 1.25 :thumbup: I'm still chicken to try it yet (truck starts good right now) but I wanna do this Mod too... Good Luck with your install ~ am very interested if the starter motor sound is like a jet engine spinning up compared to the ole big prop job un..? LOL

[claych]

New PMGR starter is in and working perfectly!
Weird thing -- this starter is 'quiet' for 1.2kw with
a gear reduction group --
Now for the longevity test:fingerscrossed:

[xboxrox]

New PMGR starter is in and working perfectly!
Weird thing -- this starter is 'quiet' for 1.2kw with
a gear reduction group --
Now for the longevity test:fingerscrossed:
COOL & THANKS for the feedback claych ;^)

[xboxrox]

Final Test Results: UNSATISFACTORY :thumbdown:

Yesterday my truck would not start & today I was lucky enough to get a local mechanic (Vernon) to fix the broken starter; problem was just loose wiring connections..! He tested the starter while it was out of the truck and it spun up strongly... Even so, I asked him to do his best to install the new starter I bought at an online govt auction...

The auction starter was intended for farm equipment and fork lifts with Mitsubishi engines... He threaded the starter case holes to 10 x 1.25mm to match the existing bolts & even used a grinder to remove metal on it trying to make it fit... Best he could do was get only one of the original mounting bolts to line up... He said it would be necessary to remove a good amount of metal from the pointy end of the cast metal cover which holds the pinion gear shaft end bushing... Forget That...

So I phoned NAPA O'REILLY's AUTOZONE asked them if there was any difference between automatic transmission & manual transmission starters for my truck and they said no even though two types of starters are shown on Autozone & O'Reilly's web pages NAPA only shows one starter exactly like the one that was in my truck... They do require knowing engine size mine 2.6L (not sure what the starter might look like in a 2.0L engine) The starter like mine only fits 1985 & 1986 trucks... NOTE that the correct starter like mine has a white electrical wire coming out of the starter casing (not sure what this extra wire does but it connects to the truck wiring harness and it's clearly seen in the photo below)... The Autozone rep said the cone end shaped starter photo was a STOCK photo and not a photo of the actual part...

Anyway long story short is the NAPA starter should fit it's the only one they list that fits a 1985 & 1986 2.6L engine irregardless of transmission type or 4WD & RWD ; while O'Reilly's & Autozone show two types of starters you better know whats in your truck before ordering a starter from any of them...

MORE INFO: After reviewing RockAuto starter info it seems the transmission type does make a difference ~ the automatic transmission starter has the closed nose cone shape end 8 tooth pinion gear & the manual transmission starter is open face 9 teeth pinion and the extra white wire from the solenoid... Many of the manf have their starters listed as fitting the wrong transmission... Vernon tried to get the automatic transmission starter to fit my manual transmission truck without success... MitsubishiPartsCentral shows only the automatic transmission starter part# M085731D and I cannot find a Mitsubishi part# for the 1985/1986 manual transmission trucks...

REF: https://www.mitsubishipartscentral.com/oem-parts/mitsubishi-starter-m085731d?c=cT1NRDA4NTczMQ%3D%3D

Hope this helps somebody someday & if anyone wants this new starter send me a PM & a UPS shipping label and it's yours ~ all I can do with it now is tie a rope to it and if the brakes give out then throw the starter out the window to help slow the truck to a STOP...
:grin:

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[xboxrox]

Engine runs better (misfire 98% gone) since tightening the loose starter wires https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/Bad-Engine-Ground-Symptoms-and-Diagnosis

[Fingers]

Not saying my starters are OEM. Both the '89 and '86 are 5-speeds and both have starters with nose cones.

[xboxrox]

Weird HUH..? THANKS for the input Fingers :thumbup:

This starter Vernon tried to install is for forklifts & farm equipment (I bought it from a govt online auction) ~ he said the cone was preventing it from seating all the way into the bell housing & he was unable to get the 2nd hold down bolt started..! The starter that fits my truck is the open face type (my truck is 5 speed manual tranny) ~ some of the auto parts stores & RockAuto show the cone & open face starters reversed as to which starter fits which transmission auto or manual ~ also, these starters are only for years 1985 and 1986 trucks (per the Mitsu Part #s)

I wished it wooduh fit my truck because it's about 2.5lbs lighter than my starter WHATEVER :shrug: MORE WEIRD is Vernon was able to diagnose 'n fix my old starter, problem was loose wire connections, now the truck starts fine again PLUS has much less misfires ~ must be the loose wires effected more than just the starter..!

BTW my truck's starter has 4 wires connected to it & this auction starter only has 3 (4th wire is white not sure what or why it's there..?)

Now-A-days ya gotta be very careful what you buy online ~ half the crap don't fit or is fake Made in China stuff

I posted a FREE starter in Parts Wanted section; buyer pays shipping ~ USPS Flat Rate box is cheapest shipping method...

Other things reversed or typo'd into auto parts is spark plugs for my truck ~ the owners handbook says use NGK heat range 5 but most places wanna sell NGK heat range 6 (colder) which I did try but those #6 plugs are way too cold and fouled up right away...

I just noticed Claych's post above in this thread shows a photo of the cone type starter he used which fit his truck AND THE CONE LOOOKS TO BE SHORTER than the cone on this auction starter..? Dang, am I learning something new about these starters..?

My Little Brain needs a break :^)
George

P/S. In a few days I should receive some parts from MEGAZIP & AMAYAMA and if they fit I will post a thread about it :rolleyes: <---- IF THEY FIT..?

[xboxrox]

Not saying my starters are OEM. Both the '89 and '86 are 5-speeds and both have starters with nose cones.

Do your cone style starters use the fourth wire connection (?) my truck has it...

It's a white color wire on the starter on my truck that plugs into a main wiring harness going somewhere but what it does I have no idea...

I just took a closer look at Claych's post (above) which has a photo showing the cone starter that fit his truck ~ and comparing my photo of the farm forklift starter cone there could be a differnce in the cone length (shorter cone on Claych's starter and longer cone on this auction starter) which did not fit per mechanic Vernon saying the cone was too long...

Any more feedback would be nice & thanks for posting Fingers :thumbup:

[SubGothius]

I think that extra wire on the starter may be the "R" connection covered here:

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showwiki.php?title=Electrical+System:The+Starter+p lus+R+and+S+Terminals

TL;DR: If your coil has a ballast resistor with a black+red wire connected to the same end of the resistor that's jumped to the coil (+) terminal, you don't need the "R" connection on the starter -- i.e., the black+red wire provides the same functionality built-into the stock wiring loom that an "R" wire from the starter formerly provided on earlier trucks.

[xboxrox]

SubGothius geeze so much info; thank you..!

I've highjacked my own thread LOL

After seeeing a new post by member Mitsuzero I remembered that Vernon had moved the air cleaner to access the starter work ~ the IAT sensor connector wires get moved a little when pushing the air cleaner off the carb ~ NOW bet it was that IAT connection that made the truck run better & not the loose starter wire ??? Anyway after Vernon's wrenching I disconnected the IAT sensor connector AND the Thermo-Valve connector so I could replace the air filter under the cap on the Thermo-Valve (also replaced breather hose filter & air filter inside the air cleaner case) ANYWAY the truck ran like CRAP after touching these things ~ the cure was cleaning the connectors

[xboxrox]

Dang starter went click click click NO START AGAIN :thumbdown:

Too bad the coned starter did not fit ~ just ordered a rebuilt starter from OReilly's delivery Aug 3rd free shipping

Time to end this thread :thumbup:

P.S. The autoparts websites say the open face starter is for automatic transmissions but NOT ON MY 5 speed manual TRUCK

[Chargerx3]

Check your battery and wire connections for the click click click start.

[Chargerx3]

Check your battery and wire connections for the click click click start.

[xboxrox]

Thanks Chargerx3 checked em 'n all good ~ this is the 3rd time the starter totally failed ~ ordered a rebuilt starter from OReilly's ~ their free shipping was quickest delivery; their online part photo look exactly like our part ~ oddly the open face type starter is listed as for automatic transmission but it's what fits into the km132 (?) 5 speed manual tranny ~ whereas (on our truck at least) a coned end type starter will not seat into the bellhousing ?!?

Maybe parts #s get typOH'd when entered..?

Aug 3rd is expected delivery date ~ lifetime warranty keep the receipt B.S. :grin:

[SubGothius]

Hmm... leads me to wonder if there might be a difference in starters for the KM132 manual vs. the KM145, and/or maybe wide vs. narrow block?

[xboxrox]

Hmm... leads me to wonder if there might be a difference in starters for the KM132 manual vs. the KM145, and/or maybe wide vs. narrow block?

SNOUT LENGTH of a cone end type starter would be nice to know between my farm forklift unit & a unit that fingers, finalfighter and pennyman have mentioned they (have?) fit into a manual tranny truck...

I could/should take photo with tape measure to show the snout length of this auction unit I bought AND THEN ASK (I think it's FinalFighter?) that has a snout end starter on hand as spare part to measure his too... (?)

I might be able to use the farm forklift solenoid (as spare part only) if it matches the one soon to be coming out of our truck... It would require soldering the white wire onto the 4th connector spot...

I don't know enuff about the transmissions SubGothius to make an intelligent reply BUT nothing surprises me anymore especially from parts to polictics...

:shrug:

[xboxrox]

MY SNOUT LENGTH :rolleyes: izza about 2 1/16" ~ 2 1/8" long... Whats Your's..?

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=27916&stc=1


IF I wooodah been thinking on my feet then the day Vernon had the old starter removed side by side with the new farm coned model we could have tried comparing solenoids & if same then reinstall the old starter equipped with the new solenoid..? Might not have had to order a rebuilt starter; ya think..?
:shrug:

[xboxrox]

Trying this today... IT WORKS, TRUCK STARTED OK TWICE.. :thumbup:

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