I shook hands with the devil...

[geezer101]

Today I went on a little field trip to one of the local pick-a-part wrecking yards in search of a solution to my A/C dilemma (I'm planning on getting the aftermarket A/C in my '85 L200 upgraded but that's another tale - or thread, maybe...) and upon my exit I spotted a very sad and beaten blue Lancia Beta 2000 coupe at the end of a row. Me being me, I was curious and had a look over it. The lovely old school twin cam engine was intact and had one very filthy carb sticking out of it. A closer look revealed it was an Italian made Weber with a water choke and electric fuel cut solenoid and the throttle linkage turned clockwise (even though it had a lever action second linkage that pushed against it rather than pulling) So I made a deal and handed over the cash (a whole $42). It is gonna need one of my "Geezer magic" rebuilds to bring it into service but it should be a cake walk compared to a Mikuni teardown. In theory this should already have suitable jetting for a 4G63/G63B SOHC. Have I blown my cash or is this one of those 'fate' things? :scratchheadyellow:

[geezer101]

* Added info - after a big clean I managed to find the Weber model stamped onto the throttle base. Turns out it is a 34/34DATA 4.100 CB. I've done a McGoogle search on it and other than a few images not real data on it has come up. It seems to be in relatively good shape and I've already started modifying it. Still having no luck with photobucket and mightyram being friends so yet another external link -

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/geezer1011/L200%20Express/L200%20Express%20308_zpsbtcxubp0.jpg

[claych]

Well Sir,cool thread!
The photo piqued My interest. I have some years experience with the Holley-Weber domestic platform
& as I have some time , am gonna get out the google stick also !!!
The domestic variants were all 32/36mm & 38/38mm (if memory serves)... the 34/34mm ??? seems to be a rarity.

[claych]

Wow, just wow...
made a few calls after google stick, here's some of the(sarcasm) 'helpful replies' (sarcasm)
"call a mfgr in europe" "yeah its a lancia carb" " why would You need to know that" !!!!
Finally ended up here,--->http://dkmac.okzks.servertrust.com/default.asp<---
Called & the 34/34DAT is listed as a performance replacement for 32/34DMTR...
He has complete replacement 34/34's !!!

As to the alpha/numeric part # system, Holy Confusion !!!
---> read post #17 ( http://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/carb-retard-whats-ida-dcoe-all-dat-chit-main-371852/)--- yep, all those letters are Italian or Spanish words !!!

[claych]

Sorry, screwed up the first link... edit...---> http://dkmac.okzks.servertrust.com <---

[pennyman1]

Back in the late 80s the 34 / 34 DAT/CEC carbs were sold as "emissions" carbs for Japanese trucks. There were also sellers then selling solex and other carbs as real webers. It got so bad that no one would buy them because of the poor performance of the fakes and no way to verify them online.

[geezer101]

Claych, you are an absolute gem dude :thumbup: So this evil contraption is a performance upgrade on all things Italian. The item this guy is selling is different to the one I pulled off the Beta 2000 twin cam as it only has one choke butterfly compared to his 34DAT. Also the auto choke thermostat on my 34DATA has 2 coolant connections, not 3 as pictured on this link - http://dkmac.okzks.servertrust.com/category_s/454.htm

I almost feel bad that I'm going to modify this Weber into a direct fit install without an adapter. I'll have to mill out the mounting holes, cut a section off the throttle linkage to allow the Mikuni linkage to bolt straight on, then figure out a return spring mount that doesn't foul anything (I'm going to block off the coolant port in the manifold and tap a barb into the side of it so the auto choke function works as per factory). The factory Lancia carb supports approx 117 bhp @ 5000 rpm in stock form so I wonder what this Weber will do. Yes, I will post pics on progress...

[noahwins]

This gun git gud.

[claych]

Claych, you are an absolute gem dude :thumbup: So this evil contraption is a performance upgrade on all things Italian. The item this guy is selling is different to the one I pulled off the Beta 2000 twin cam as it only has one choke butterfly compared to his 34DAT. Also the auto choke thermostat on my 34DATA has 2 coolant connections, not 3 as pictured on this link - http://dkmac.okzks.servertrust.com/category_s/454.htm

I almost feel bad that I'm going to modify this Weber into a direct fit install without an adapter. I'll have to mill out the mounting holes, cut a section off the throttle linkage to allow the Mikuni linkage to bolt straight on, then figure out a return spring mount that doesn't foul anything (I'm going to block off the coolant port in the manifold and tap a barb into the side of it so the auto choke function works as per factory). The factory Lancia carb supports approx 117 bhp @ 5000 rpm in stock form so I wonder what this Weber will do. Yes, I will post pics on progress...

Happy to help Sir !!!
Thing is,I know next to squat about Global Weber Variants, (as stated, My experience is with domestic Holly/Weber configs)
So, Your $42? pickup is a great learning experience for Me (selfish bastid that I am LOL) & still --- great topic !!!---:thumbup::thumbup:

Oh, almost forgot, EI310798, & EO310798... for the interested parties--- since 1993 :)

[pennyman1]

I have seen 32 /36 webers like that with a choke plate only on the primary side of the 2 stage carb - it eliminates the restriction of the plate at WOT

[geezer101]

Going off that link you posted Claych that wholesaler is offering a pretty good deal for one of these 34DATA Webers. I'll need to run a kit through it and then do my funky carb thing while it's apart. The mounting holes are all out by about 3mm each (further out than compared to the Mikuni) which isn't much but its going to be cutting it close in a few places when I drill and mill them. Looks like I'll have to rework the plenum ports to accommodate the bigger 34mm primary. Can't complain - this $42 is going to give me hours of amusement...The stuff I do :rolleyes:

[claych]

Well geezer, --- 'Mate' --- Wheres the pics (j/k)
Your the virgin on this mod :clap::clap: cool thing is the 'web spyders' lock the info into the cloud---
For everyone to educate themselves on their builds, On that note, read post #17 (http://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/carb-retard-whats-ida-dcoe-all-dat-chit-main-371852/)
Applies sooo many ways,...

As to Your ability to make the 34/34 DAT work on the ? 4g63 ? get busy !!! --- wheres the pics ---

:) :)

[geezer101]

Well geezer, --- 'Mate' --- Wheres the pics (j/k)
Your the virgin on this mod :clap::clap: cool thing is the 'web spyders' lock the info into the cloud---
For everyone to educate themselves on their builds, On that note, read post #17 (http://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/carb-retard-whats-ida-dcoe-all-dat-chit-main-371852/)
Applies sooo many ways,...

As to Your ability to make the 34/34 DAT work on the ? 4g63 ? get busy !!! --- wheres the pics ---

:) :)

After reading the post attached to the link you provided I thought I saw something familiar - the reference to the Pat Bradens' guide on Weber Carburettors. I have that book in my resource material stockpile. I burrowed through my magazines and manuals and 'Lo and behold!' I found it. Time to read my reading glasses on. A reference to the DATR is made in the 'Weber family tree' but - no schematic or specifics on the DATR or DATA.

Tell ya what fellas, when I pull this biatch apart I will give it a dedicated thread with lots of pretty pictures - carb, stripdown, manifold mods - the works. I'll try to record jet sizes that are installed on this particular 34/34DATA and see if there are any cross references to jetting charts in the Weber Bible to see if it is in the park for tuning to the G63B and what might be done to improve on it.

[claych]

:)
Well then, just to throw a couple more tidbits into the mix (lol)
I went & dug up some of My ancient ref material---
The Holley 5200 was a licensed copy of the Weber 32/36Dxxx !!!, further,
Ford, Chrysler, Gm used the 5200 in variants (5210 5220 ), with further Import
variants (Mazda ,Mitsu, Toyota) !?!
Seems Holly decided 'standardizing' jet #s, bleed #s & emulsion tube #'s to validate flow was a good Idea (duh).
Partial info Here (http://www.mazdatrucking.com/B2200/5200.html).
P.s, geezer,
all the listed are 2.0L-2.5L @ 270 CFM, (INFERRED 85% V/E). --- which does not add up mathematically --- as
no info is provided as to cam profile/exh config/head port design/piston design...
More to follow Sir.

[pennyman1]

but the 5200 holley weber variants have all kinds of screwy emissions crap that were a bitch to work on - not something to use on our trucks

[mopar_ja]

Geez, you should take those oil pump mods and pics you did from photo bucket and post a separate How-to in this section. just a suggestion.

[geezer101]

Whoa claych, you have been a busy fellow indeed. I found a variant of the 34DAT was used on 2.5 L rover engines but the interesting thing about the one I saw on a site was the progressive linkage between the primary and secondary was adjustable. So you could fiddle with the overlap to alter the midrange power band (I looked at the set up on the 34DATA I picked up and thought about whether or not I could modify the overlap and it seems Weber beat me to it! lol) The Weber guide by Pat Braden suggests that changing emulsion tubes will have a near unnoticeable effect on the operation of the carb as it will be very subtle but it will depend on the main and air jetting totals.

p.s. I have gotten in touch with the webmaster in regards to my inability to post pics so, in the meantime I'll be forced to use links to my album.

...a days work of messing with linkages and comparing 3 different models of carb got me to this point - (start from this link and follow descriptions on each image through the album) http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/geezer1011/L200%20Express/L200%20Express%20315_zpspuw5ouuo.jpg

warning - I engage in acts of random madness :scratchheadyellow:

[claych]

AHAHAHAHAHA,
I shook hands with the devil once, 'it' would not let Me into hell 'cause' I owned 2 MITSU's...
(stuupiid tard drove a lada)
Back on topic...
I wish Edoardo Weber were still alive, think what he could do with EFI !!!
Back on topic.
Venturi size (rule of thumb) = 1/2 bore size squared ./. pi x 3278 + 2...
Ah the infinitely variable Weber...
As usual Honored Posters, I defer to those more Knowledgeable then Me :),
Just tryin to help !!!

[geezer101]

Geez, you should take those oil pump mods and pics you did from photo bucket and post a separate How-to in this section. just a suggestion.

Hell dude, the rate I'm going I'll end up with a whole site just on building a bomb resistant G63B hamburger with everything! So far I don't think I've done anything new or special, just the fact I've decided to give it a shot myself. I was scared of carbs once and thought they were full of dark magic - then I started tricking them up and derestricting them. I still haven't done a full short block rebuild by myself so putting the '63 back together will be a little nerve wracking. This however is the first carb retrofit I've tried so I have no benchmark to compare with (and using a carb that nobody seems to be familiar with is not helping either! lol) I really wanted to try a quad rack of bike carbs but that will take some fabrication work that is out of my league - at least for the time being. Once I have the mechanics of the install sorted I'll have to design a filter and air intake set up that will suit the Weber. More work...

[mopar_ja]

Just means you will be Master Builder when your done.

[claych]

but the 5200 holley weber variants have all kinds of screwy emissions crap that were a bitch to work on - not something to use on our trucks

Spoken for truth !!! I DO NOT ADVOCATE using a 'licensed copy' of any part on our trucks !!! PERIOD !!!

P.s,
geezer101, I figured out how the 'licensed copy' 32/36Dxxx variant was applied across 2.0L-2.5L(domestic)platforms which have 223-270 CFM flow
rate variance--- the 'economizer' (lol) secondary venturi --- restricts air flow between 28-46 CFM, but theoretically is supposed to increase
atomization. (burp).
Problem is, Weber (the real deal), allows venturi replacement & the there are many options... 'licensed copies' do not !!!

[geezer101]

The copies like the Holley are designed to do what they do - fuel an engine in wide rpm range for general application. Not great for performance but is in the middle of the road for economy and day to day driving, just like the Mikuni and every other carb on a production vehicle.

The venturi restriction plays a very important role in fuel atomisation. It acts as an 'air brake' which does exactly what the theoretical application implies. It doesn't make too much difference what size the throttle butterflies is in a carb (obviously going small will suffocate an engine in higher rpm) but if you have the ideal diameter venturis (which are a compromise due to varying demands on the engine and its integral design) and have it jetted within operating parameters, the venturis will slow air flow down to a velocity that allows effective atomisation. Otherwise you end up with a stream of fuel being shot down a turbulent path, killing torque and and only functioning in a very narrow rpm band (which will be at a gazillion rpm).

[geezer101]

O.k. A little update. I've filed and ground out the mounting holes on the 34 DATA (which look more like gigantic ovals now...) and am at the point where it'll bolt down to the manifold. I ran a thread tap through the small coolant port and need a 6mm grub screw to seal it up. And then I have discovered - the base of this thing is hell warped. I mean, it's like a surfboard (insert facepalm here). Not a deal breaker, just means I'll have to reface it when I strip it down and start doing all the necessary prep work to it. It looks like the force of it being bolted down has distorted the corners where the nuts have locked down onto the mounting studs (the alloy this thing is made from is a little on the soft side which can be both good and bad)

Only thing left is designing a throttle cable bracket with the right geometry for the cable to pass through the linkages and adjuster stop mounts. Technically that will be the last thing the Weber will need. After that it's mod-the-manifold time!

[mopar_ja]

Any pics, for us who lack imagination or for us to just "say, yeah i got it" to make believe, but still don't have clue

[geezer101]

:rolleyes: okay,okay. I'll post up something soon. It is crazy hot here atm and I'm lacking the mojo to go into the geezerdome. Nearly done butchering the inlet manifold to match up to the spacer and then it'll get the final go-over (how much more metal can I chop off this thing before I run out?). My throttle cable bracket is rubbish but it's only a prototype to get my cable alignment correct (you might've read a comment I made about it on another thread) I'll update soon

[geezer101]

Time to block out the sun with pure awesomeness - Bridge between the ports has been cut outhttp://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/geezer1011/L200%20Express/L200%20Express%20342_zpswget7bty.jpg

Still need to remove some more metal from the primary port end of the plenum but I'm not sure if I'll take it right out to the edge of the spacer, radius it off or make a new spacer out of an exotic plastichttp://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/geezer1011/L200%20Express/L200%20Express%20343_zpsvfvqjhp2.jpg

Here's my hatchet job mounting hole modhttp://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/geezer1011/L200%20Express/L200%20Express%20344_zpsxros3rku.jpg

You can see the difference between the spacer and the ports on the 34 DATA carbhttp://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i351/geezer1011/L200%20Express/L200%20Express%20348_zpsjg54scfy.jpg

[mopar_ja]

Just bevel or radius the remaining lip on manifold just to help decrease cavitation, no reason to full port the manifold to spacer size since the bores on carb are smaller as well.

[geezer101]

I think I'm going to make my own spacer instead of using the one I salvaged with the carb. This way I can maintain as much of the air/fuel charge velocity as possible. I have a very sharp edge on the inside of the plenum as a result of removing the bridge between the ports and I'm not sure if I should leave it alone or radius it off. I think leaving it will promote turbulence and keep the fuel suspended in the charge but radiusing it improve velocity into the manifold runners - you guys got any thoughts on this?

[pennyman1]

air likes smooth surfaces - radius it - the sharp edge will cause too much resistance and screw with your tuning.

[geezer101]

:thumbup: thanks pennyman! Looks like this manifold has got another date with the die grinder...

[pennyman1]

if you are worried about the fuel dropping out grind the edges like an intake leaving it a little rough.

[geezer101]

And so I am still messing with this contraption. I have been advised to remove the coolant auto choke and replace it with an electric unit (apparently it is a straight up swap of housings) and I can get a new electric choke for the Weber. When I check the usual villains (ebay) I come up with cross compatibility of parts. "To suit Weber and Holley 2 BBL", then the electric choke lists the same between "Holley 2 BBL and 4 BBL" on other listings. Is this right? And what other carbs use compatible electric chokes? My 34 DATA carb needs a bare bones strip down and clean but I still haven't bought a rebuild kit to commit to getting it mounted. As it is I have replaced the main coolant barb to a single brass outlet for the heater connection (necessary to tidy up the water choke deletion) and I decided to also replace the brake booster vacuum barb with a brass one. The final addition to the inlet manifold is deleting the single outlet thermal vacuum switch and fitting a brass bung to block it off. Another issue cropped up too - where to hook up the vac advance to the distributor. Guides say the vacuum hose must be above the throttle butterflies where there is no internal vacuum present off throttle or you would be getting vacuum advance continuously but there isn't a provision on this carb for it (there are 2 capped vacuum connections but both pass to below the butterflies so I'm stumped :shrug:) Added bonus, I can't find a working distributor in the JY's - all of them have dead vacuum servos except one I found on a 2.4 which had no servo (ECI set up)

[Lon Moer]

A RHD Lancia Beta??:shock:

Ohh I really want all the RHD conversion parts! That would knock over the people in my Fiat club!
:car:

[geezer101]

After a long hiatus, an update. I did something today with the weird 34 DATA carb. This particular problem has been the primary reason why I haven't jumped in and rebuilt the carb yet - the water choke assembly. I wasn't sure if I would be able to do anything with retrofitting an electric choke housing on it until this morning (and the reason why it just happened to be this morning is worthy of a slap in the ear in itself). I didn't want to invest in buying a new choke off ebay just to find out it wasn't compatible when I realised -
...I have a complete 32/36 carb I could scavenge the housing off just to test it out :slap:

After pulling the chokes apart and playing mix and match with housing clamps and backing plates, I got it to work! :woo: Luckily the 34 DATA uses the same choke housing diameter as the 32/36. So next is the full strip down, DIY soda blast (the reason why I started the hunt this morning) and then a search for the correct rebuild kit for my 34 DATA 3/100 C8 (not CB as I originally thought due to the carb being a bit beat up and grubby) Only thing I ran into that I wasn't expecting was the choke housing backing plates. I had to use the backing plate off the water choke with the electric choke as the matching backing plate for it restricted the choke opening by at least 60%. At least it's something...

[geezer101]

2274522746

So this is where I'm at on this thing. The top of the carb body showed signs of pitting and some distortion so I've refaced it using 400 grit paper wet on a sheet of glass. The emulsion tubes and main jets have been soaked in a citric acid bath and polished up. The throttle shafts aren't assembled completely at this point as I think I want to spend more time prepping it (the venturis have been smoothed out a little and the throats polished up) The original Mikuni throttle linkage works OEM. This carb was a mess - lots of gunk had gummed up the galleries and shafts, the auto choke was laggy but the fuel bowl was free of corrosion.

The rebuild kit I bought for it is a good quality kit that has all the diaphragms and seals etc. I found this mysterious 'power valve' unit on the opposite side of the throttle linkages that I have no idea how it works, but it was clogged up pretty badly (there's a ball bearing check valve inside of it). No doubt that if the engine this Weber came off of was still running, it would've been running awful...