Starting issues

[Giovanni89]

https://www.amazon.com/5841853328-Ar...dDbGljaz10cnVl
The best thing for getting to hard to reach bolts sometimes. I have a 1/2 and 3/8 Craftsman. This style of swivel works like a cv joint, and will not bind up like a traditional 2 pin swivel joint. Work great by hand as well as with power.

[85Ram50]

OK got her out.Got it to the end and the thing was too loose for the ratchet and too oddly positioned for my fingers. I looked at it for a bit then realized/remembered what I had figured out the last time. Go in at the top bolt from the top passenger side with the valve cover off! Now I will get the longer ratchet and swivel.
What is this wire that hangs off it? They are on all of the new ones for sale too. Where doe sit connect? That post for the positive battery cable is loose. I imagine that means something right?
I have a picture of the 1/4 ratchet from underneath to show how tight.
under.jpg Pass side.jpg whatisthatwire.jpg other end.jpg

Edit- Tested the starter and it was fine. Snapped right into action full extension. I have to think the failure to turn over and maybe the hard starting before that has something to do with the Positive post being stripped on the solenoid. That is a lot wider than the thickness of the connector. It is also loose and wiggles quite a bit.
solenoid.jpg

[85Ram50]

The solenoid has a different plunger than all the ones for sale for the 2.0. The plunger is narrow and has the square hole that hooks over the fork not the nail head looking thing that slips into the fork which means the fork itself is 90 degrees different. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=42742&cc=1096219&jsn=12369

The 85 2.3 motor on RA has two solenoids that look right, one is at the link, but both of them cost as much as two new starters. 3 new starters if you buy one of the 2.6 motor starters.

I take it back I found one online at the only store I did not go to. It costs as much as a new starter! WTF $51.99

EDIT- Turns out this starter is from a MM. I deduce that because the only source for the same solenoid is if I use 85 MM 2.0 as the search term. I think the shorter used starter I got from the junkyard was not working properly when I got it. The new starter at NAPA was the same size as it. OK hopefully someone will clear that up. I ordered the solenoid from RA. And I found a ratchet at Napa that is a very neat design that should solve the problem.
ratchet.jpg

[85Ram50]

New twist I think. I took apart the short starter I have had which was sluggish to clean it. Turns out there are only 3 magnets (Brushes) in it. Every vid I have seen of rebuilding a starter shows 4 magnets. Do I have a defective starter?(maybe was given wrong starter?) or is this something normal? Where would I get a magnet if I needed one? Edit- Looked up brushes on RA for both mighty/ram do not match this style brush assembly. Sorry about the glare on the label. I couldn';t get a clean shot even after adding teh color. It is Mando II 9D24. The II is faint.
only3magnet.jpg spot missing magnet.jpg side opposite.jpg label.jpg

EDIT- Somebitch would you look at this! https://iugiscarbon.en.made-in-china...-Starters.html
Scroll down on the left it lists the brands of vehicles it was used in. I would have sworn there had to be 4 brushed for it to work. That picture is the brush assembly on mine . So I'm gonna clean it up and grease it and see how it tests. It was very sluggish and weak. It never turned my motor over when I got it.

[geezer101]

Ok those things aren't magnets, they're carbon brushes. They do all of the electrical contact work to the commutator (the collar with all of the copper poles on it. If the brushes are hell worn down (which yours aren't) or jammed (they won't press up against the commutator and make good contact) it'll cause intermittent start issues. So this is what I do:

- Get a small seal pick/remover tool and clean the grooves between the copper poles/plates on the commutator to remove built up debris (try not to scratch/gouge the copper, just be careful with it) The junk can cause dead shorts which will decrease how much torque it'll generate.
- Put the drive end of the armature (opposite end from the commutator) in a drill press and on low rpm reface the copper contacts with fine wet and dry sand paper (wrap the paper around something flat so it holds against the entire surface of the contacts in one shot and not just on one small area or you'll reface it unevenly) Make sure it is clean of any oil, grease etc before and during reassembly. If you don't have a drill press, just wrap the paper around the commutator and twist it by hand until the copper looks bright.
*Do not try to take out any grooves as you'll remove a lot of material before you even get close
-Clean all of the built up gunk from inside the starter motor housing and on the brush assembly (your brushes look clean in your pics so that's ok) and add fresh low melt grease to the throw out arm
-I don't generally mess with the starter solenoid. It's an electro magnet and trying to take it apart is courting trouble. Make sure the anchor bolts are firm and you can't twist the solenoid housing around.
-Don't try to reface the ends of the brushes. These things are hell brittle and will crumble the minute you try to tamper with them. They will bed themselves in after a few starts (don't expect it to work first try thus the advice of bench testing until you get continuous successful tests)

[85Ram50]

I figured out I was getting magnet wrong later. I first called them springs when I was writing.
Well it is back together, in two pieces anyway. The paint I grabbed off the shelf in my garage dries real slow so I will have to wait until tomorrow to attach the solenoid to bench test it. The armature was black and there was very little grease and what was there wasn't where it should have been and was very hard. Had to use xylene to break it down. I used dabs of red high temp grease. I did what you recommend Geezer. I also watched the 10 year old vid from Jay the Aussie and this one before I tore it down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tN3vhIW3Fc. I only had 400 grit wet/dry. It looks good enough. Bit of a pain getting it back together but otherwise no surprises. I expect it was sluggish and weak because there was no grease on either end and what was in there was hard as well as the armature being so dirty it probably was not getting good contact. Watched this too. Didn't try it on mine because my solenoid looked to hard to take apart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eUmT5IpwuM Cool vid and good to know.

[geezer101]

First video wasn't bad. Let us know how your bench tests go

[85Ram50]

It's a pretty paperweight!
I tested it and the pinion snapped fast several times as my unsteady hand slipped with the jumper several times. Once I got steady it snapped then spun slowly and gained speed to a nice whir. Then I stopped and tried it again and I got nuttin IDK what's up. I soldered the wire that no one seem to know where it should connect off cleaned up the end then soldered it back on. Here's a couple of pics of my pretty new paper weight

paperweight.jpg endpaperweight.jpg

[camoit]

So the wire that hangs off was it connected to anything? Normally when there is a wire like that it's to send power somewhere when the starter is energized

[Giovanni89]

Pinion snapping out fast means the solenoid is working correctly. Slow then no spin means there's probably a short in the windings somewhere. I'm guessing that with all the cranking it's been doing lately, the very old epoxy in the wires finally cooked off. But it sure is purdy. Maybe you can swap some guts and salvage your nicely painted case.

[85Ram50]

Camoit, all the starters I have seen for this rig had that wire and it has only been connected to the hot wire for the Mikuni cut off solenoid (By a Dodge mechanic who didn't help me much really) which I believe according to Geezer is dead wrong.

This is a different starter Giovanni. I had it sitting around thinking it was wrong for my truck because it did not match the other one. I figured out the only diff was cosmetic. The one I had in is MM style this one is the Ram 50 style. I also was fooled because I did not know much 13 years ago when it made noise but did not turn the truck over. I bench tested it before taking it apart and it was really weak.
Anyway I guessed it was my ground and sure enough I came out and wire wheeled the face of it and set it on the vice like that and it worked fine. I put it in it didn't want to work with the key then not with the remote I thought I did something wrong and then the remote kicked the motor over like it was doing its job. The keye worked to turn it over too after that. It quit messing with it as it quit turning over. I think it is either the wiring from ignition and to the coil (It was kicking over with a wire off and the nuts loose on the ballast) or maybe the battery is drained again since I never got it started and charged by the generator, only by the plug in charger.
So now I am trying to take off that box on the passenger kick plate which one section of the harness a couple of these wires at the coil are in lead to. IDK what it is. Really hard 11mm nut to get at without removing my dash again. The harness connectors pulled out this time! I tried like heck last year with no luck when I was doing the cab. I'm hoping there will be answers in that box once I open it.'

So as it is I still don't know what is making it not start but it definitely seems electrical. That new wrench $76! made it easier but its still a pain to mess with the top starter bolt. I could only use it from the top when the bolt is almost all the way in. Should have got one with the shaft that had a swivel in it instead of the head. It let me get at it from below and turn a full 1/4 each time though. That's a lot better than 2 clicks on a 1/4 drive ratchet.
In case it is not clear the new solenoid for the other starter is due in Saturday. So if it is this starter being iffy I'll have that one fixed.

[85Ram50]

So it is the ECM. Who knew. I wonder if it was playing any role in this thing running since everything it might have controlled has been disconnected?
Is there a wiring instruction on here for just wiring the absolute necessary stuff? I mean lights, radio, dash, and whatever needs wire on the motor. I'd like to put in a 90 amp generator. too.

Here are a couple pf pics of the inside. The cover reflected glare so much nothing showed up clear. It had these numbers printed on it in 3 lines MD081123, E2T53971,4912

ECU.jpg ECU standing.jpg

Edit- Found this in the wiki. http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...nd+S+Terminals
Tells me what that wire is for. Still have no idea where on the coil it might connect.Onward ho!

[geezer101]

The ECU only runs the feedback systems on the carb AFAIK. This was waaaay before CANBUS and all the other fun nightmares waiting to screw up in a car. I don't think I've heard of a feedback ECU failing but never say never. The only way you'll know if you have a bad winding in the starter is to probe all of them. Full charged battery + good external connections/leads + correct timing, but weak crank = starter fault. Make sure you get the one that matches your transmission. Auto and manual starters don't swap and it'll damage something like the ring gear or itself (they have a different teeth count)

[85Ram50]

I found this in the Wiki, saw it when logged out never saw the diagrams on top and bottom when I was logged in. http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...nd+S+Terminals
I'm going to cut open my looms and find these wires trace them for shorts and try to eliminate all the wires that are no longer in use. That extra wire on the starter is apparently supposed to be a source of 12V from the ballast resister when starting. I'm not sure I understand all that I read but I can follow the pictures You reminded me to go put the charger on the battery again.

[85Ram50]

Nothing much has changed. I started stripping the sheath back on the harness. I did one section from the brake fluid holder to midway across the firewall one section with the Temp wire and the black/white wire from the coil. I found a bullet connector just before the wiper motor and the wire it is on is small black/white with red dots along the white stripe. Any idea what it is? The bullet connector looks like it burnt out, has a hole in it, and is only hanging on by a couple threads in the wire. I suspect it belongs to the Mikuni or smog system that is long gone.
Picture bullet connector.jpg

[geezer101]

The thick black wire/white stripe is live ignition power (confirmed) If it's not connected to anything, cut off the connector and cap it off before taping it back into the harness. You can do a voltage test on it with ignition off/on and maybe add a female spade connector to it and leave it for a possible power feed for a later date, otherwise just ignore it.

[85Ram50]

I put a female spade and heat shrink on it. There was no indication of power key on or off. There is a 4 way split in the black white stripe wire. One goes to Ballast Resister. Two go two the two smog things. The fourth one goes to a plug which I just saw in the close up in the picture and it has two black white stripe wires in it. So there must be another splice somewhere. I didn't uncover the last 8 inches of that plug branch so probably there. I have no idea what the plug is for except the smog or Mikuni.

The 4 way was only covered in elect tape but as you can see it was good enough. I put heat shrink on it before I retaped. I put the computer back in. I wired the coil back up and tried testing which post had 12v with the key on so I could know which one to attach the wire from the starter to. They both read 11.8 when I use the DCV 200 scale on the multimeter ???? The first pic shows the coil wiring (blue wire from distributor is to+post) and those two black things on the fender right of coil are where two B&w stripe wires go from the splice. Second picture is the 4way splice and the fixed wire. Last shows the plug before I retaped.
retaped.jpg4way Splice.jpg4th split IDk.jpg

[xboxrox]

Your coil connections look correct, but I think my ballast has only 3 not 4 wires on the blue end... I notice you have the correct black ground wire on the coil mount bracket...

Keep at it brother

[85Ram50]

The blue wire that goes left is to the electric choke. The black w/stripe one on the left is one of the 4 spliced wires I mentioned, the black wire with red heat shrink is from the distributor, the other black w/stripe wire from the right is from a different section of harness I did not open up that goes into the fire wall. The Dodge mechanic I paid to work on it before I started to try to figure it out myself connected the choke to the ballast, I never questioned it.

[geezer101]

The wire for the electric choke should be pre-ballast voltage AFAIK. Having an accessory running off it may be loading up the coil/ballast by drawing more voltage/current off it than it should. Hmm, this could even be the root of your running problem?

[xboxrox]

85Ram50,

I can't prove it but I think my truck (as far as electrical stuff) was all original wires & connections when I got it from the govt auction (a NAVY owned maintenance truck) It has never had four wires on either end of the ballast piece... 1985 & 1986 years trucks might be different (?) my truck is a California emissions build...

We replaced the ignition switch about a year ago and doing so cured an intermittent slow starter cranking speed problem... MitsubishiPartsCentral still has OEM Mitsubishi switches... There is only a screw holding it to the key part so it's just plug & play NO need to change any keys 'n stuff...

When my brother owned the truck he had to get the starter replaced twice... I think it was pennyman(?) here that said a starion starter fits and is a much better starter than the original for the truck...

Maybe Santa will come early and a box from Rock Auto will arrive at your place with a new Mitsubishi Starion Starter...
Aloha--
George

[85Ram50]

1. Where is the electric choke meant to get power from?
2. Where is that extra wire from the starter meant to get power from? Should it be always on power, or only powered when cranking? I think I understood the wiki to say it supplies 12v during cranking.
3. Looking for picture of ignition switch.
I rebuilt the starter I took out, with the new solenoid.
Found this while searching for the ignition switch http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...nics-out-there going over it now.
And I found this in that link xbox you devil you http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...hp?albumid=569 Good to know!
Third edit- Sent email to see if they have the part MB031704 on hand. Can you confirm this is the correct switch Xboxrox? It says for 85 MM base model.

[85Ram50]

I decided to remove the ignition switch to have it for comparison. It looks new. The PO must have changed it. I also lost a piece of it, the bakelite or ?? piece that covers the second part that screws into the back side. I also discovered a previous short in the harness from the wiper and turn signal switch. I scraped it with a tool and put dielectric lube on it. It looks very old.
So if anyone knows where to find this ignition switch, I'm hoping a new one will come with that piece. You'd think I could find it as it never left the area under the steering wheel but nope. It is the piece you can see clean copper on the first picture.

ignition switch.jpg Ign plug.jpg other ign plug.jpg
This is the short found this.jpg

[xboxrox]

MB414579 ignition switch is what I ordered, your switch's wires & connectors look same... So it's a safe bet this switch was used for several model years... The FSM names that other copper looking connector as the KEY REMINDER SWITCH -- all I know about it is my truck has ZERO bells whistles or buzzers ding dings and the courtesy light don't work either he he Love IT
Mitsubishi Parts Central is a site run by the parts dept of a Texas (?) Mitsubishi dealership
CONTACT Gary (214) 372-7850

Gary is the BEST -- tell him George in Hawaii says HELLO

[geezer101]

Any ignition power should be connected from the harness side of the coil/ballast (power going in) There already should be an ignition power feed suitable for the carb as the Mikuni needed it for the fuel cut solenoid (it will/should be a female bullet connector black+white stripe unless the PO lopped it off ) No random wires hanging off that side of the harness?