??seems you are intimating Mitsubishi Cyl heads are junk---Originally Posted by geezer
in a nutshell
Any ohc cyl head can warp to the point of cam bind in a severe o/heat incident...
As to 'straightening' the head by heat & press ???
Please do post your actual experience with same.
Last edited by claych; 01-02-2021 at 03:14 PM.
Well, hope you're having fun there. It is either a metallurgy thing (different grade of cast alloy) or the design of the head is different (casting thickness in relation to internal galleries, cam bath depth etc) My experience - IS THIS SITE. If you check new posts and threads as often as I do, you would've seen not less than 3 posts where new members have run into a locked up cam or a cam has snapped on the 4G64. No other reports or inquiries of this happening on any other 4GXX/GXXB variant SOHC engines. It is common sense that a warped head will pull the cam journals out of alignment (minimum effect is weird cam journal wear) and every head I've had professionally recon'd hasn't been refaced without a 'true-ness' check before deciding on whether it's needed baking and pressing straight (done G32B's, 4G52's, G63B's and recently a G4GF twin cam so I've done one or 2...)
OOC, what is your beef with me?
Ok kids, play nice now.
As currently mostly listed on the Macro thread. Seems I do have an issue with the timing ( and posting pictures...... ).
Most of what I know of these little ones is what I broke first and had to fix again after that. The rest I have been taught by some nice folks around here somewhere.
Does anyone have an advanced timing chart with all signals. Such as at what angle the fuel sensors are supposed to give signal and when the crank sensor is "not" supposed to be cranky ( and give signal ).
Thx
Hey dad
1 picture is worth ---
Last edited by claych; 01-03-2021 at 02:52 PM.
cracked sohc heads(2.0 & 2.6) r very common, especially turbo applications
Could very well be a 'metal' thing, dunno. Sohc heads are a thin slab, compared to a chunky dohc DSM head for instance
Seems the kids are behaving ( for now )
Hey'all
Finally had the time to do a little more work. With the overheating last time the engine now runs way warmer then before. I did the thermostat on the Macro for it not wanting to warm up. Figured it was the same here but instead of an always open thermostat this being an always closed. Engine still running way warmer then I know it has.
I have not checked the old thermostat yet for "popping" temperature or if it even works at all.
I have not found any leaks yet and for as far as I can see, the water pump rotates ( should work in that case ).
Anyone got any sugestions?
Aside from running "warm" ( and out of timing ) the engine runs ok and drives fine. not that I currently drive Single much.
Texas is freaking freezing now. 'Environmental cooling system' is at it's optimal lol. So it's timing is out? Wonder if it's the cause of the constant higher running temps
Timing out either way can increase cylinder temps
But do you really know what the temp is? You can’t use a stock gauge.
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The real temp, no I have no number for that. I might be able to get a number to the feel sometime around of both of them. Engine runs but you can "smell" its getting warmer then us used to. Issue been happening since the heater core hose spewed coolant all over the place. I switched cars and this one sat without full coolant for a few.
Initial thought was the thermostat, which I still have but still not tested to see if it even works.
A day needs more hours or less work hours.
I did finally get to change the lash adjusters to get that knocking out. Almost sounds like a "new" engine lol. with some issues still here and there
Well, the new lash adjusters seem not to be 100%. The knocking is there still on first starting but way less long, maybe its there because single just sits in the drive way long periods of time now instead of being driven. Done oil change on both.
Single still gets way warm, last time I was out I stopped on the side of the road and checked for "warm spots". It feels like the thermostat is working, somewhat if not fully 100%. Top of the radiator gets "hot" the bottom outlet is way cold though. Get the feeling its blocked at the radiator somewhere or near the pump inlet. Meh, feels like I be taking the coolant loop apart yet again. The radiator stays so cold at to not even making the fan clutch kick in, well aside from the top of the radiator that is.
I still have yet to test the old thermostat though. I really need to make time for that.
The hydraulics take a little while to prime and do their thing. Might be the oil you're usingIf you think the radiator is clogged you will be able to feel coldish spots on the front of the radiator core. You can try removing the radiator and filling it with a batch of citric acid powder dissolved in hot water with the radiator laying it face down on a flat surface and let it sit for an hour. Dump the solution back into a bucket and thoroughly flush the radiator out with a garden hose in both directions. It is strong enough to break up calcification and some residual rust, but not enough to munch the alloy cores. If it does leak after that, the radiator was already shot and was waiting to ambush you anyway.
*if you think the radiator is clogged badly, get a hot air gun and slowly sweep it over the radiator core while it's full of the citric acid solution. A combination of heat expanding the alloy and exciting the acid will cause the calcification to crack and break up. DO NOT overheat the alloy core in one spot as it could damage the core.
I am being forced into "Get it done faster mode" as Macro just stopped running on me. I will have to figure this temperature thing out soon ( Very soon ).
Time to take the tools out and start tinkering.
Well, an other update now.
I gots stranded.... again.
Single let me down as well this morning. Kind of felt the same as Macro so crossing fingers that the timing belt just went or skipped. That is a mostly easy fix.
Fear for something that will keep her from being on the road for a while though
Will have my wife drag my ass home again sometime today. lol..
Shall assess the damage later today and prepare to really get the second drive way done so I can work them without having to worry about them being in the way on the main drive way.
Hope you all had a good Memorial weekend and a better start of the month then I did.
well, that geezer101 mentioned and was made fun of later on. Would seem rather real to me.
Especially now that it would seem that single has developed this issue.......
Timing belt snapped in the middle of driving to work. First thought, shitty belt used. so I grabbed the old belt from the macro and went back out there to put that on and hope to drive it home. Removed the fan and all other parts needed to get access to the timing space. I moved the cam manually at first and did not give it a second thought that it "snapped" in place. Turned all timing belt driven components with tools and crank and oil move like I remember then. Then I did the Cam again, snaps in place every 90 degrees or every 3 hours ( 12, 3, 6 and 9 ). I still don't have her home, hopefully tow her here later today for further checking. The heat problem from earlier is probably involved also. With all the storms here and other issues I was never able to fully temp test various parts of the engine. Thermostat works at the correct temperature. Valleys blocked or something maybe. Likely very bad also. Pulling head off and find out with a camera I guess...
Just my luck lately ><
You all out there better be doing better then me!
Well dude, I am sorry to hear that you may have fallen foul of this issue. You'll know for sure once the rocker cover is off. I have no idea why it's the SOHC 4G64 that specifically has this problem and it may even be a particular production run of these heads that suffer from this issue
Here I is again.
I pulled the valve cover off from Single. It gets snapped in position at the TDC make on the cam close enough to the mark on the engine to say its at TDC and "snapps" into position every 90 degrees. So far it seems like this matches with the followers "locking" the cam between shifting 2 cylinders in opening and closing the intake valves.
I took the valve train off all together and the cam shaft rolls free without the followers.
Currently I am guessing something with the valves, what ever it may be.
Time for me to really start setting up shop and pull either one of these engines out and pull the cylinder head. When I do have the head off I can also further see possible damage due to crackes and others. So far I see no fluid mixing or other leaks. I cannot do a compression test anymore due to the ripping of the belt and the snapping of the cam.
Anyone with any advice currently on where to look, both pick-ups show the same issue. I have not checked yet at what angle the macro "snaps" the cam in position yet though but it also does this "snapping" every 90 degrees of rotation.
Thanks in advance.
Fushy.
The 'snapping' is normal. It's going from being loaded up by the valve springs then being released. It's more noticeable with a 4 cylinder due to the 4 stroke cycle. It's not 'exactly' 90 degrees due to valve overlap but it's close enough. If you have a bent valve (or worse, many...) you will see a rocker arm will have excessive play (and the engine will run like a dog...) Don't go hunting for ghosts and shadows - look for obvious signs of damage and wear or you'll end up having an aneurysm. Examine the belt for torn out teeth, a bad tensioner etc. Good luck
Thank you Geezer,
I, for the life of me, cannot remember the cam doing this when I replaced the belt. I remember it being stiff to move but not snapping over like this. Gave me the thought the belt ripped due to the sudden tension drop and the crank just yanking it till it finally ripped.
The tensioner, I shall check this again and order 2 new timing belts from rockauto this time. Or just 2 new belt kits from rockauto with B belt and both tensioners all together and see where I stand with that after installing.
The belts themself are not that expensive not to give it a shot and its not all that much work either to install them, at least on single that is since the front covers are all still off anyway.
I shall inspect the belt again also, I did read on the belt again that the ones I bought do not seem to last long. So if what you say is true and the folks complains about these belts is also true.
Case closet. Shitty belt and I just need to get 2 new ones to get both my pick-ups back again.
Dang, that shall make me a happy man.
Currently I am driving a gifted Infinity QX4 that needs some body work but I do not like driving the larger cars, give me my pick-ups or the other gifted Saturn SL2.
They make me soo much happier to drive.
Shall keep you posted on what may seem like my ghost hunt :D
Thanks.
Fushy.
There has been mention about some aftermarket belts being junk. If you can find Bosch you're good to go. Gates... dunno. Gates are keen to blame improper installation, not using full Gates replacement installation kits (w/tensioners etc) contamination to the belt - whatever gets them off the hook. Just don't run double valve or HD valve springs in a belt driven engine. Bad idea...
Hopefully your belt and head woes are at an end
Many Thx Geezer for your information.
I did call the "Ghost Busters" and that bugger has been caught. With that I was able to do what I needed.
I found the Belt originally from the Macro when I bought that one. It skipper some teeth and ran like crap originally thus I replaced the belt as soon as I could.
Short of some aging cracks and the previous skipping damage, the belt is not in too bad of shape. Enough at least to "test" both my little gals with.
Cleaned off Single again and re did all my work around the valve lifters.
Put the belt on, ran it without fuel injectors just to circulate the oil. Sounded normal, me all happy.
Put the fuel injector plug back in and attempted to start. First 3 cylinders fired, then lost all compression again. Crap I went.
Checked the belt, its still there. Took the belt off, without checking the timing marks ( dump ass...... ), cam chaft feels like normal.
When putting the belt back on it would seem like the belt had slipped. So, ok. Test 2 and put more tention on the tentioner.
Put the belt back on after lining up all the marks and pried the tention roller this time. Nice and tight.
Connected everything again and ran again without fuel injectors. Sounds normal again. Connected fuel injectors and..
She runs!
No water pump as the belt and radiator fan are not installed yet. But the running for 20 secs made me happy enough. Now I have to order a "good" timing belt and put it all back together.
I would probably have been looking for all sorts of things by now, Thx Geezer for your advice.
Cant wait to have a new belt for Single and install this one back on Macro to drive her to me "shop space" to pull the engine and replace the bad bearing ( or just rework the whole engine while I am at it )
^^
Fushy.
Glad you got a win. If the tensioner sounds sketchy so I think it's worth doing the lot - main timing, balance shaft and new belt tensioner. That small balance shaft belt gets a beating and if it fails it causes chaos. Getting belt deflection right is an art too.
Yhellow folks,
I back again :D
quite some time ( and miles ) have passed already. The whole tensioner thingy sounds sketchy to me on these older engines. Its just a roller that is bolted on and does not adjust after its bolted. I talked to some shops about that and I guess checking the belt every oil change something is something I shall have to do. I have a few manuals here for the 4G64 engines. Only 1 of them actually lists the roller without the hydro tentioner and other then the first install and the belt deflection setting it speaks no further of time of miles it should be checked.
So far I have been doing "kits" for the timing belts. Including both belts and new rollers for both. One of the kits I bought also had all oil seals for the shafts in there.
Do not play around with timing components, they will mess you ( the engine ) up really bad in most cases. These single cam 4g64 engines are the exception to the rule.
They just "stall" and happily wait for you to put a new belt on there to make them run again.
For that parts its sooo nice that these little pickups lack most of the accessories that make cars so expensive today and makes these rather easy to maintain.
I also had break issues, front right hose burst. Replaces both front hoses, not sure what the rear hose is supposed to be. Removed the old fluid ( that was not so fluid anymore at the master cylinder ) and flushed. All new fluid and I can stop again. Passed state inspection and I should be good again for a little while.
Those who still have these little pickups, hope you are all having as much fun with them as I am
Fushy
Hope you weren't in the middle of any challenging driving when the brake hose burst. Not fun. The recommended belt replacement interval according to Gates is 60,000 miles but no mention of a check interval after a new belt has been installed. Brake fluid should be flushed every 5 years especially if it is getting exposed to extreme weather conditions (mostly cold) And it passed another inspection! Well done
I was driving to work and my guess is it burst at the last lights. Had to break hard here for some fool trying to rush the lights. Did not notice the breaks where "squishy" till the first lights going home. Long live manual transmission, shift back and let it roll. Was able to pump up the breaks enough to drive home with it and have some breaking power still.
For sure not recommended but got me home without causing accidents or anything.
Getting ready again for repairs on little single though. tie-rods are going out... I may just do it all like I did on macro and be done with it for the next 20 or so years.
I had to do them on the Macro due to alignment issues and those where rusted shut so badly it took 3 days of torture before I even got it all separated to replace it all.
So far though, I can at least say the work on my little pick-ups makes sense. on my wire her 15 year old Ford I am replacing parts that should last the life ( should they wear at all ) of the car.... parts like heater core, gas tank and things like that all due to rust issues. Little pick-up so far only has issues with aging rubber parts.
Well, aside from my stupidity
Hope you all had a good scare at Hallo Ween and a good gather for Thanks Giving.
Fushy.
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