Facet electric fuel pump?

[originalowner]

One of these days the Weber install that I started back in 2007 will be complete. Takes me forever to get stuff done- but when it's done IT'S RIGHT.

I picked up a windshield molding and a RR tail light lens from Mitsu too. I have plans on replacing the windshield- it's sand pitted bad from age/mileage.

I could have gotten a used taillight lens from a boneyard, but at a little over 40 bucks for the assembly, I sez to myself "Self, just get a new one." Plus I will bet you that most of them (90% easy) in the junkyards are from base model trucks that have black trim around them not chrome like the SPX has.

I think I may also start collecting those body side moldings that are unique to the SPX. That is another part that I'll bet will become impossible to find in the years to come. They only came on the SPX too.

[originalowner]

OK guys- here's where we're at.

I don't have the electric pump installed yet due to my circumstances. To wit...

This has been a serious learning curve for me- but what I have learned will benefit all- even those who have done the retrofit to the Weber.

There are many combinations of components that will "work" in other words the truck will run when you are done, but the question is how well.

Much of my confusion was due to simple ignorance of certain aspects of the World of Weber, and marketing hype that comes with companies wanting you to purchase their product. For example, just about any site that sells the Carter P4070 electric pump will say in the description of the product that "no fuel pressure regulator needed". That's only partially true IMO. You may not need a reg for most applications, but if you are feeding fuel to a Weber carb, you definitely need to get the fuel pressure down below 3 psi. As I mentioned earlier, my factory shop manual says the factory mechanical pump will yield 2.4-4.2 psi output pressure. Acuta73 stated that he had read or heard that the Webers really don't like anything over 3 psi. They get fussy and tempermental over 3 psi. My own experience has shown this to be true. My experience has also shown me that my factory mechanical pump is still pumping it's ass of with 350K. That is the nature of a lot of original parts on my truck- they just last forever w/o wearing out. In doing my due diligence and research on this, I mentioned that I read on Jim Inglese's website that he only recommends the Holley 12-804 pressure reg. And while it's true that he does intakes and Webers for Cobras, that doesn't change the fact that Webers- whether it's an IDF, DGV, DCOE will all benefit from fuel pressure that is limited to 3 psi. Those carbs are all the same basic design- what holds true for one model will hold true for all.

All that said, I have to admit that I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that within the past week I realized how much of a dumb-ass I have been about that return line. I thought that I didn't need one. Since 2007 when I installed the counterfeit Weber, the return line back to tank was just plugged off. Well, this week I hooked it up properly to the "real" Weber. Even after the fuel bowl was full, the mechanical pump would still be pumping more fuel into the bowl- the result was unmetered fuel getting dumped into the motor. (My last tank of fuel yielded 13.0 MPG.) Yikes.

I've not calculated the MPGs since I hooked up the return line, but it should be better-in the mid to upper teens. (It runs better, put it that way.) Getting the electric pump and reg should get me to 20 or so. The window sticker says 23 city/28 highway, so 20 MPG city in the real world should be just about where it will calculate to.

I realize that a lot of what I have read here is simple "trial and error". I have tried to take what everyone has said, and balance that with my own life experience of how long and how many miles I have used the vehicle as my daily driver. I consider Jim Inglese and expert on Webers, so his opinion carries a lot of weight with me. The Holley 12-804 is the only pressure reg that he recommends. Common sense leads me to believe that Holley saw the sales potential of a pressure reg that is tailor made for the Mikuni to Weber retrofits (and any other Weber applications for that matter.)

ALL THAT SAID- it is becoming harder and harder to to find shops who will work with you on this. They don't want to install the parts that you've bought- they want to source parts from wholesalers whereas they get the markup- instead of StreetsideAuto.com getting the markup on parts. Hell I'll even throw them a few more bucks on the labor to make up for it. They don't see it that way though. *sigh*

Bottom line I have not found a person yet to do the install. I know what works, but I have to either find a person who does work on the side, or find a shop who will do the install to my instructions and wishes. I borrowed the idea from Pennyman (I think) of mounting the pump near the bed mount at the filter location. Because it made sense to me that electric pumps "push" fuel and mechanicals "pull" fuel. I went to Town and Country Hardware (they used to be an Ace Hardware until very recently) and got a piece of sheet steel to fab up a mount. A local steel fabricator cut it to the proper size for 10 bucks. Coffee fund money he called it. LOL That is where the pump will be mounted in the back. For the pressure reg, I want to mount that on the LF inner fender- disconnect the line that goes to the mechanical and instead hook it to the reg. There is another "output" that I can hook the mini-guage for pressure readings. Dial in 3 psi *voila* and I should be golden.

So my question to my MM internet buddies is will this not work? Through my own laziness, and the fact that I have just been so slow in getting this done PROPERLY, is why I am so late to this party.

Of course, I can wait for the mechanical to wear a little more and the pressure would be in the middle of 2.4 and 4.2, right where the Weber would like it, but as you can see, I am beginning to think I'll be dead and buried before that happens.

Thoughts?

[originalowner]

*more*

One thing I have to emphasize is that I have all those years and miles to make judgements and comparisons to the original Mikuni set up. For many years and hundreds of thousands of miles, that was my baseline. I've said this before, for all the rants I read about the original POS carb, when it's working right, it was awesome. "EFI smooth" is how I put it in another post. If I didn't have so many miles on the truck, it would prolly still be on the motor. It did not fail until 280,000.

These trucks are very honest though. When something is amiss, it will tell you with a symptom. Or try to tell you at least. Then it's up to you to piece it all together.

The parts manager recommended a Mitsu dealer tech that could possibly finish the install, but I've not gotten that far with him yet. He wanted to mount the electric pump under the hood. I never got that far with him but in hindsight I would say "well why are electric pumps almost universally mounted in the tank?" Because they need to be in the rear, that's why. But hey, I'm just a dumb-ass service writer. If I listened to him, I would have an even bigger cluster or even multiply my driveability issues.

A wise man once told me that he learned more about life in a conversation with a homeless bum than in many conversations he had with college professors with multiple PhDs. Is that why God gave us two ears, but only one mouth? You tell me.

I need to find somebody who will do this MY way. And I don't mean to sound snarky when I say that. Put another way, nobody knows this truck like I do. Even a veteran Mitsu tech has to respect that.

The dieseling or run on has been improved by 90%. The final 10% will be corrected when I finally get this system fully sorted. The return line fixed most of it, which is kind of why I'm so embarrassed, to be honest. At least I can turn the key off and it won't run on for more than a few seconds. That clutch and pressure plate got some serious abuse from popping that clutch to kill the motor. Since 2007.

I can feel some sloppiness in the drivetrain from that. But I'm not going to address that until this fuel system is fully sorted.

[originalowner]

I really don't know what to say. I ask for input and thoughts, and what do I get? Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

I came here because I am just as passionate about these trucks as any of you, even more so in a lot of cases. I don't own one to do performance mods, because I drive one because they are so cheap to operate.

I'll just do what I think is best for me.

That said, I don't think this board will know how it worked out. I really want to share how my combination of parts will work, but if you guys don't really care, why should I?

Sorry guys.

[BradMph]

Does this mean your not going to leave a tip?
Don't give up on the board...sometimes the right person for your question just hasn't arrived to answer it yet. We also try to emphasize that you do what is best for you. We always try to supply all the right tools to do the job, but it's hard to find all the right people to do every job. With your input, it helps make the board become more knowledgeable for the next person with a similar question. You may be that person that helps them.

[originalowner]

Does this mean your not going to leave a tip?
Don't give up on the board...sometimes the right person for your question just hasn't arrived to answer it yet. We also try to emphasize that you do what is best for you. We always try to supply all the right tools to do the job, but it's hard to find all the right people to do every job. With your input, it helps make the board become more knowledgeable for the next person with a similar question. You may be that person that helps them.

Well that was kind of my point Brad. I ask for feedback for the P4070 and 12-804 pressure reg set-up, and all I get for almost a week is crickets chirping.

I'm like damn...

I guess I should have started a thread on intake icing.

I could jack-leg the shit out of it, but I was more interested in the regular user's thoughts on this particular set up- as opposed to "do what you want and let us know how it works out." I'm well past that point.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do just about anything, and since this is my truck we're talking about, I was sincere in asking for feedback in what I have planned. But sheesh all I hear is crickets.

Pretty sure this will work, all I'm looking for is a thumbs up or two...

[camoit]

Sorry man, but I have been slammed lately. Sometimes I can't get to all the posts. They come pretty hot and heavy at times.
As far as that regulator I had problems with it creeping up on the pressure. I tossed it and went with a return style. The other problem I have now is under heavy throttle I loose pressure and the system shuts off. But that is probably from fuel loss during acceleration. So I need to jam a hole bunch more foam in the tank or add in a fuel well with trap doors. Holly told me it was because I did not have enough restriction in the system,,,, Huuu??? I thought that was what the regulator did was make a restriction. So I added in a restriction jet in the return line so I'm double regulated.

Like Brad said some times we can't get to all the posts or people just don't have that part in there truck. I can't say anything on the pump. Never used that one. A majority of the time I'm on here is spent tracking IP addresses and blocking the spammers from China. So many times I only go off of what I see in the side bar. If it grabs me then I'll take a look or if it has zero replies I'll at least try to point them in the correct direction. This thread is a post 80 so I just figured it was being worked on by at least 3 or more guys. Sorry.

[originalowner]

Sorry man, but I have been slammed lately. Sometimes I can't get to all the posts. They come pretty hot and heavy at times.
As far as that regulator I had problems with it creeping up on the pressure. I tossed it and went with a return style. The other problem I have now is under heavy throttle I loose pressure and the system shuts off. But that is probably from fuel loss during acceleration. So I need to jam a hole bunch more foam in the tank or add in a fuel well with trap doors. Holly told me it was because I did not have enough restriction in the system,,,, Huuu??? I thought that was what the regulator did was make a restriction. So I added in a restriction jet in the return line so I'm double regulated.

Like Brad said some times we can't get to all the posts or people just don't have that part in there truck. I can't say anything on the pump. Never used that one. A majority of the time I'm on here is spent tracking IP addresses and blocking the spammers from China. So many times I only go off of what I see in the side bar. If it grabs me then I'll take a look or if it has zero replies I'll at least try to point them in the correct direction. This thread is a post 80 so I just figured it was being worked on by at least 3 or more guys. Sorry.

Don't take it the wrong way...it wasn't meant that way. From the set-ups I have been exposed to here, I haven't seen anyone yet with that set-up. A few are running the Carter P4070, but without a pressure reg. The ads say "No pressure regulator needed", but I'm calling BS on that as I mentioned earlier. The stock motor with that flow output- seems to me it would just nearly choke a stock motor with way too much fuel. If if reduces pressure by limiting a little flow, why is that a bad thing? It's 70gph for pete's sake. AND THE MOTOR IS STOCK.

I just really want to get this thing right. I've run it long enough with a stopgap fuel system in place.

It gets more than enough fuel with a stock pump and no reg and the stock pump max output is 4.2 psi. Running the stock pump with a real Weber for over a month has proven this to me.

The Carter P4070 runs 3-6 psi and that is way more pressure than needed- 4.2 is too much.

That is the crux of my question.

Inglese is the one who only recommends a Holley 12-804 with Webers. The last time I talked to him, he indicated he would try to answer any question I had. I may call him back and pick his brain a little more. I understand he would be guessing too, to be honest. An educated guess, but a highly educated guess is my take.

[camoit]

The holly regulator might work with the carter pump as it is a low pressure pump to start with. The one I used was a holly pump that builds 15 psi so I was forced to go with the return style regulator. The one that came in the box was just like the 12-804.
My pump is a holly blue and man o man does it pump fuel. The regulator that came in the box slowly creped up on the pressure thats why I went with the return style. It is 4.5 - 9 psi I must run 6 psi.

[originalowner]

The holly regulator might work with the carter pump as it is a low pressure pump to start with. The one I used was a holly pump that builds 15 psi so I was forced to go with the return style regulator. The one that came in the box was just like the 12-804.
My pump is a holly blue and man o man does it pump fuel. The regulator that came in the box slowly creped up on the pressure thats why I went with the return style. It is 4.5 - 9 psi I must run 6 psi.

From my research it looks like the 12-803 is 4.5-9 psi and the 12-804 is 1-4 psi. Both are adjustable within the stated ranges.

So you have the 12-803 in other words- but they look identical.

My feeling is- like I stated earlier the 12-804 seems tailor made for the Weber DGV on stock 4cyl. motors.

1) P4070 mounts is the rear on a mount made to fit one of the bed mounts. Electric fuel pump in the rear because it "pushes" fuel up to the motor. Use a stock filter before the fuel enters the pump, and you can also use the existing fuel supply line.

2) Mount the 12-804 on the LF inner fender. The 'bottom' of the reg is for the main line from the tank- (it is clearly labeled "in" whereas the other 3 fittings are labeled "out".)

3) Of those 3 outputs, one goes straight to the carb (I can easily put a simple in-line filter in that line,) one houses the fuel pressure mini-gauge that I bought, and the 3rd is just plugged off.

4) The return line is already hooked up to the carb.

That is the set-up I envision and that I think will work perfect on a stock motor.

Another part of the problem was the instructions that came with the counterfeit Weber. If I remember right, the instructions just said to plug it off.

That's where my 'run-on' problem came from. Hooking up a return line cured 90% of that problem- that's why I feel that the needle and seat is still being "over pressurized" and why I am still getting idle fluxuation in varying degrees.

I am still getting a slight degree of surging that I feel is idle circuit related as opposed to main circuit related. This will also be corrected when the system pressure is at or below 3psi.

[camoit]

the 12-803 look identical. Just different pressure. Of course what I have now is just larger in all aspects.

Engine run on is from the throttle plates being open to far at idle, and just a touch rich when you shut it off. IF it does not have the idle cut off solenoid it's a larger problem. Mine was that way. Many times a surge can be from being ether to lean or to rich. If it's an idle surge that is the problem and you need to preform the lean drop.

I have the factory Weber manual in the manual section in the first gen manual. But I would guess that the Webertation manual is a straight copy from weber.
Have you preformed a lean drop since you put on the new regulator? I want to say they describe it in the weber manual. If not it is in the UTI training manual with step by step instructions. There is also a thread on how to do it in the archive, and I might have placed it on this board at one time. Just search lean drop in the archive.
Then again there was no inter net when I hooked up my weber so I just ran the thing from the stock mechanical pump. Worked fine for me. But there were problems I never cared about.

My regulator is identical just higher pressure. If you don't have the bypass line does the pressure creep up on you tell it's at the pump max pressure. That was my problem. After about 25 seconds of running the pump the pressure would clime to 15 PSI.

[originalowner]

the 12-803 look identical. Just different pressure. Of course what I have now is just larger in all aspects.

Engine run on is from the throttle plates being open to far at idle, and just a touch rich when you shut it off. IF it does not have the idle cut off solenoid it's a larger problem. Mine was that way. Many times a surge can be from being ether to lean or to rich. If it's an idle surge that is the problem and you need to preform the lean drop.

I have the factory Weber manual in the manual section in the first gen manual. But I would guess that the Webertation manual is a straight copy from weber.
Have you preformed a lean drop since you put on the new regulator? I want to say they describe it in the weber manual. If not it is in the UTI training manual with step by step instructions. There is also a thread on how to do it in the archive, and I might have placed it on this board at one time. Just search lean drop in the archive.
Then again there was no inter net when I hooked up my weber so I just ran the thing from the stock mechanical pump. Worked fine for me. But there were problems I never cared about.

My regulator is identical just higher pressure. If you don't have the bypass line does the pressure creep up on you tell it's at the pump max pressure. That was my problem. After about 25 seconds of running the pump the pressure would clime to 15 PSI.

I'm still running the stock mechanical with no pressure reg. Most of the driveability issues I have have been greatly diminished with the Spanish made Weber install. But there are still a few niggling issues that remain.

Nobody here has that same setup, (stock 2.6, P4070, Holly 12-804) so I thought I might be on my own with it.

Trying to adjust the idle mix with too much fuel pressure is an exercise in futility. No other way to put it.

I do believe somebody was right when they said the Webers get real fussy with any fuel pressure over 3psi.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, but I would bet my left nut it's over 3psi. Everything else on the truck has worn minimally, I don't see why the mechanical pump would be any different.

Thanks for your input, Camoit.

[camoit]

The thing with the mechanical pump is it's a spring that makes the pressure. All the cam does is, reset the diaphragm so the spring can push it. I have seen springs do strange things. But your correct in thinking that you will be the first to have that configuration of parts. But to me a pump is a pump. It comes down to the flow it can run. A restriction is what makes the pressure.

Try the lean drop and see what it does with the set up you are using now. It may just fix all and then your done.

[pennyman1]

I know you don't want to believe it, but the mechanical pump will cause the problems you are having, and a reg won't fix it. The Weber is too sensitive to the pulsation of the mechanical pump because of its close proximity to the carb. If your pump is only putting out 3-4 psi, it is almost dead, as a new pump puts out 9-13 PSI. I have run Webers for over 30 years, and installed them on several trucks - if you want the rest of the issues to go away, go with an electric pump - you won't regret it.

[originalowner]

I know you don't want to believe it, but the mechanical pump will cause the problems you are having, and a reg won't fix it. The Weber is too sensitive to the pulsation of the mechanical pump because of its close proximity to the carb. If your pump is only putting out 3-4 psi, it is almost dead, as a new pump puts out 9-13 PSI. I have run Webers for over 30 years, and installed them on several trucks - if you want the rest of the issues to go away, go with an electric pump - you won't regret it.

Pennyman, I have a factory shop manual for 1989 and it says that the factory pump puts out 2.4-4.2 psi. (Page 14.2 in the factory manual.) However that is equivalent to 20-29 kPa or the metric measurement as you know.

But I think you're right, the proximity to the carb is the problem, not the psi that the stock pump delivers.

I've already bought both the 12-804 and P4070- I am just waiting for my chosen wrench to finish putting up his shop. He's doing the metal building thing- the slab has been poured and he's in the process of getting the building. He already has a lift.

Thanks for all of your inputs guys.

I can't help it these original parts on these things last forever. LOL

[BradMph]

P4070, Holly 12-804

I have that exact same device setup, lol. Your not alone in this world. Though I run a 2.0L engine with a header but shouldn't make a big difference. I also had to adjust the pressure on the regulator to almost full open to get the proper pressure and flow I wanted. I also removed the 2nd fuel filter I put in right in front of the carb. It was a glass see through one that friggin unthreaded itself because of a bad thread tapping job at the parts factory and I'm sure could of burned the truck down. Stupid manufactures.

[camoit]

Don't forget the flow the pump can put out. I wonder what the flow in GPH is on the stock pump. An electric pump will have a higher flow.

[originalowner]

Don't forget the flow the pump can put out. I wonder what the flow in GPH is on the stock pump. An electric pump will have a higher flow.

The Carter is 70 gph. The shop manual does not specify a specific fuel output for the factory pump, just the outlet psi.

70 gallons per hour for non-EFI should be plenty for this application.

I need to check with Mitsu and see if the fuel pump gasket is available separately. If it is, I can use it to have a cover plate made where the factory pump is mounted. I have leftover sheet steel for the electric pump mount. I only used half of it.

[camoit]

Rockauto.com has the stock gasket. You can get them from NAPA also.

[originalowner]

Rockauto.com has the stock gasket. You can get them from NAPA also.

If those two parts outlets have it available, then I should be able to get it through CarQuest.

Thank you.

[arford]

Ummm So how did this end? Did the parts get installed? Are the problems gone?

[originalowner]

Ummm So how did this end? Did the parts get installed? Are the problems gone?

Go to the 2nd Gen electric pump install thread. It ended well.

IMO that thread should be pinned but what do I know.

Try to ask for help or give help and you get treated like an interloper.

That's been my experience. Not in the clique I guess. Or more likely the owners of this site really don't care that much.

I wanted to put up a thread about what I learned in jetting and adjusting the Weber carb but the reactions to what I have put up so far are so tepid I don't even want to bother. It's why I had to figure it out myself for the most part. Then you try to help others and the thread gets buried.

I feel like I am talking to myself most times.

Sorry for sounding so harsh but it's true.

[royster]

Much sympathy here, seen and experienced a bit of that myself.

[royster]

Much sympathy here, seen and experienced a bit of that myself.

In any Divine Judgement, we will not be held in contempt for what we said, but for that which we refused to share.

In my world, we help each other with the basics, first, before indulging in privelage.

I understand this is off-topic, but I thank you for bringing this issue up: it is a conspicuous...but unspoken...frustration of this forum. (Other forums, too, from my experience).

[camoit]

Go to the 2nd Gen electric pump install thread. It ended well.
IMO that thread should be pinned but what do I know.
Try to ask for help or give help and you get treated like an interloper.
That's been my experience. Not in the clique I guess. Or more likely the owners of this site really don't care that much.
I wanted to put up a thread about what I learned in jetting and adjusting the Weber carb but the reactions to what I have put up so far are so tepid I don't even want to bother. It's why I had to figure it out myself for the most part. Then you try to help others and the thread gets buried.
I feel like I am talking to myself most times.
Sorry for sounding so harsh but it's true.

What thread should be pinned? I can't read every post. We rely on people letting us know if there is a good post that needs to be stuck. So if you find somthing you need to let one of us know.

There is no "Owner" of the site. It's totally ran by volunteers. There is zero money to myself or anybody else. It all goes back to the board and keeping it on the net or coming up with things for the board.
If you want to see a thread get buried try pirate 4x4. They have 987,714, Threads 14,349,586, Posts and 262,650 Members. Things change on there so fast it will boggle your mind. Here we have about 60 people that come through every day. Out of that we have about 10 that come through on a regular basis. From that we have about 4 that try to help out one way or the other. Everyone on here knows there own truck and what has happened to them in the past. All anybody does is try to tell people about what worked for them and what may be there problem.
I can add sub forums like the archive had. It does make it just a bit easer to weed through and see where new posts are. We also at the top you will find a drop down menu that says My Posts. It will show you just that. Posts and threads.

Much sympathy here, seen and experienced a bit of that myself.

In my world, we help each other with the basics, first, before indulging in privelage.
I understand this is off-topic, but I thank you for bringing this issue up: it is a conspicuous...but unspoken...frustration of this forum. (Other forums, too, from my experience).

It's the nature of social media. The problem is how do you get people to engage in somthing. Read and help someone when more and more we see the "ME" attitude like FB. Look at me, I just drank a crap load of beer and blue chunks all over the side walk. See my picture, I'm famous in my own mind. Don't for get to fallow me on twitter, so you can fallow along every minute of my day. Like we give a crap what some 20 somthing is doing in Austin Texas all day long.
Sorry for the rant. But we have a small niche group of people here. There aren't many of these trucks around. Many times you see them being run into the ground by the border brothers and they don't care about there truck or any forum. They would rather crash it into the back of someone and run off. You would be surprised how many people sign up for just one day to try and get what they need from the board and then never come back again or even make a post.
Around here the donators are the ones that are more inclined to engage. They found out that they like helping and want to keep the board on the net. It's like a big funnel. People start out on the rim. Get sucked in and become a donator. Then life changes and they just fall out the bottom. Some times they come back, some times they don't. They sell the truck and then don't ever come back. You never know. It's always changing on here.