Screwed up timing, I Think..

Hello people of mightyram50,
Ok to start i bought a 1991 Mighty Max for $300 not running, i get it home from a 120mile tow and go to start it, it seems like it wants to start and the owner had a non-fouler in cylinder 2, said it was burning oil, well i changed all the plugs and wires, fuel filter and added fresh gas, check compression to see 160psi and all cylinders but #2 which had 165psi, so its good i take it, well i also change the ecu and go to start it and it starts for like 3 seconds horribly like its missing like a dog. i check spark and fuel, its got both, its got compression, so my friend takes out the distributor and turned it 180 degress i dont know why but he did, now wont even try to fire...

Now to the main question. How do i fully re-time the truck as im not good with playing with timing? and if any of you are in the area maybe help me out and ill buy some diner or beer or whate ever, this is just my little project truck as i have 5 other cars. if any of you can help. i have access to Mitchell OnDemand and AllData also...

...see if this bit of advice from LSR Mike is of help to you. If you can set the timing marks for TDC and install the distributor as per his instructions it should fire - http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...ull=1#post9329 As your truck is FI'd you will need to put the ECU into diagnostic mode so it will acknowledge the timing changes or it'll run nasty.

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Originally Posted by geezer101

...see if this bit of advice from LSR Mike is of help to you. If you can set the timing marks for TDC and install the distributor as per his instructions it should fire - http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...ull=1#post9329 As your truck is FI'd you will need to put the ECU into diagnostic mode so it will acknowledge the timing changes or it'll run nasty.

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I will have to try that, Thanks

well i did what i could with the timing and it still fires for a split second and wont start any more but wants to...

You should set the crank at TDC #1 by the mark on the crank.
Then check cam timing mark. CLICK HERE
Then set the distributor by looking at the rotor to wire location. If there pointing at the proper pin you can then set the ECU into timing mode by grounding the plug described in LSR Mike's post.
Cams have been known to jump time with old belts or just snap.

OK well i believe i have everything times correctly, same with the distributor, now it will litteraly do what it did before i started messing with it which is fire for a split second then keep cranking. Do these truck have a CPS? Ive also swapped all the sensors and coil pack from my friends 92 Mighty Max, same result. my sensors and coil start his truck up perfectly... i also smell gas when trying to start it, ive pulled the 2 screws off the fuel rail and its getting fuel pressure, not sure how much but its getting pressure.. i dont know where to go from here, has new NGK Plugs and Wires...

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps8pagfibp.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...psb5pys79m.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...psws2drr51.jpg

Is it just me? I can't see the timing slot on the crank pulley. The cam is spot on for alignment so that part is sorted. There's no CPS on these engines, it's all spark timed off the cam and it's relation to the distributor. Check your distributor leads. I'm sure #1 should be up on the top of the distributor cap. If you've swapped the firing order it will act like the distributor is out half a tooth (if I got it wrong someone will set me straight :rolleyes:)

I don't see it also.
Could be the dist pick up coil. Or no power in the run position to the coil.
Perhaps a second gen guy will jump in here and say it's XXX

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Originally Posted by geezer101

Is it just me? I can't see the timing slot on the crank pulley. The cam is spot on for alignment so that part is sorted. There's no CPS on these engines, it's all spark timed off the cam and it's relation to the distributor. Check your distributor leads. I'm sure #1 should be up on the top of the distributor cap. If you've swapped the firing order it will act like the distributor is out half a tooth (if I got it wrong someone will set me straight :rolleyes:)

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Originally Posted by camoit

I don't see it also.
Could be the dist pick up coil. Or no power in the run position to the coil.
Perhaps a second gen guy will jump in here and say it's XXX

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Its that little notch in between the -5deg and TDC so probably -3deg. and i know she has spark as i shocked the shit out of myself and watched the spark while cranking and it looks strong... one other thing. can i get a MSD Blaster SS or would it not make a difference in reliability or strong spark? was looking at this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/MSD-8207-Ign...lVALDP&vxp=mtr

If the crank timing mark is in a position after TDC - that means it's out by a tooth (?). Try dialling the crank to TDC and see there the cam timing mark ends up. My guess is it will show it being before the casting pointer on the cam mark.

If the original coil is still being used I would think about replacing it. Make sure the coil is compatible with your ignition system. The coil or the ECM could fail if they are not designed to work with each other. Transformer type coils like the one in your link or a Bosch unit work really well.

Align the timing mark on the crank, and the cam should be at its place, too. Then determine if the distributor is pointing correctly...this is where you're likely a tooth off. A sure sign of being off is having to rotate the distributor (loosened) to an extreme left or right in order to get it running. If this is the case, it's simply a matter of removing the distributor and moving it a tooth towards the right direction. #1 cylinder is near the bottom of the cap as it sits on the engine...you might do well to take the cap off, mark the #1 position on the distributor body, and see how your alignments are working out.

One tooth off on the cam will be revealed by aligning the crank mark. Those belts really DO take some finesse to get absolutely right, particularly if you're looking down at the mark, instead of straight on (which can only be done by removing the grill and radiator). The most common mistake people make in the timing belt placement is aligning the camshaft mark with the top of the head, instead of the "bump" mark...you seem pretty aware of that.

Keep us posted, and know you have good support here.

edit: Looking at the distributor wires, I'd say your distributor is off a tooth: #1 should be more towards the firewall, if memory serves me right. (I'll go look at my own 4G64).

Attachment 17129

Nope, seems correct. However, your photo doesn't show where the rotor is. So be sure of that positioning.

So the crank pully should be at TDC not -3degs correct? and what do i do to correct it? just pull the timing belt off the camshaft pully and rotate it a tooth?
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...psfbm6amgn.jpg

that big T is TDC correct?

ill go take some pictures of how my trucks timing is all set up and post them for you. ill also get pictures of how the distributor is set relative to the cam and were all the wires go.

ok so here are some picks. the motor in my truck is a 1995 but everything sets up the same as yours. i have the timing slightly advanced on my truck but it runs great like this. i could not get a picture of my lower pully setup because of all the belts but it was aligned slightly before the last mark like yours. looking at how yours lines up it should be fine assuming the harmonic balancer was put on right. the picture that shows the cam aligned to the head was taken at an angle so it will look slightly off. just line all the marks up and set the distributor to how it is in the pictures and it should fire up.

Attachment 17134 Attachment 17135Attachment 17136Attachment 17137

also, check that your plug wires are wired correctly. it goes #1 is closest to you or the front of the motor and #4 is closest to the firewall or back of the motor.

good luck.

Thank you very much, i will check all that tomorrow, i also ordered a new fuel pump being the truck was sitting for some time, want to make sure its all healthy..

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Originally Posted by chaoticdopey

that big T is TDC correct?

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Yes.

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i also ordered a new fuel pump

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Good move. You can't go wrong with replacing main components if you intend to keep the truck forever. When I was in the process of replacing timing belts, I went ahead and replaced the oil pump, too. As it turns out, the old one was not in bad shape, but the strip-down to replace it later (and the risk of it going bad after all my work) made me decide to just go new. I don't regret it. Remember to replace the fuel filter at the same time.

Keep us posted!

Crank is right, so is the cam (couldn't see the mark and you had posted it being -3 degrees instead of +3 which would mean after TDC) Take note that on the timing cover it has "BTDC" which means before top dead centre. Using the timing alignment marks is a bit 'iffy' as it doesn't account for belt wear, gear wear, any material shaved off the deck of the head etc when trying to get your ignition set. Once you have got the distributor set right you should be up and running :thumbup:

Are you grounding out that wire when setting the timing? I'm not sure which one it is. But it's on the passenger side fender. LSR Mike has done a write up on it

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Originally Posted by camoit

Are you grounding out that wire when setting the timing? I'm not sure which one it is. But it's on the passenger side fender. LSR Mike has done a write up on it

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http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...ll=1#post26994

Well thanks for all the help everyone, finally had my mechanic come down and check it and found out it was off by around 4-5 teeth, found the timing belts and balance shaft belts all cracking so i just had him redo the whole timing, only problem now is it does smoke when reved, what could i do to kind of fix it, cause that means piston rings correct?

Could be a number of things. Do a compression check first. Valve stem seals? Is it belching smoke when revved from idle or all the time? Most of the time where I've had a smoky engine all that has been needed was pulling the head off, a check over and some reco work, new valve stem seals and it would be back to running nice and clean.

i will take a video tomorrow with pics of compression test

Valve stem seals are the #1 reason why these trucks will burn oil at start up. If the smoking slowly stops after a cold start up, you can be sure it's valve seals. If it's all the time, it could be a valve guide has slipped out of place. Rings are the last thing to suspect.

Valve seals can be replaced without removing the head.

Your tests will indicate what the problem is.

you want around 100 psi or more. Also the Jet valves can cause smoke if your truck has them.

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Originally Posted by royster

Valve stem seals are the #1 reason why these trucks will burn oil at start up. If the smoking slowly stops after a cold start up, you can be sure it's valve seals. If it's all the time, it could be a valve guide has slipped out of place. Rings are the last thing to suspect.

Valve seals can be replaced without removing the head.

Your tests will indicate what the problem is.

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This is how it runs..
https://youtu.be/rvbJlt2KAYw

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Originally Posted by camoit

Also the Jet valves can cause smoke if your truck has them.

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He's got the 4G64, cammoit...no jet valves.

Sounds good running, chaoticdopey. I'm going to say your valve seals are bad, by the inconsistency of the smoking. If it were rings, you wouldn't have periods of clear exhaust. Don't take my word for it, though: get a couple more opinions.

My experience with bad seals was prolonged smoking after a cold start-up, often until it was almost at running temperature. It would smoke for at least a mile before finally clearing up. The reason is: sitting overnight, oil drips into the cyclinders. The cold start-up isn't enough to burn it all off quickly, so there is a period of start-up smoking.

I also found, after replacing the seals, that it continued to smoke at cold start-up for a couple days...getting less and less each time.

I'll probably get flak from some members for saying this, but I run straight 30 weight oil in my 4G64: I found multi-viscosity allows some smoking, and this might be due to some cylinder wear, and possibly seal failure due to my not really being absolutely certain how to install them. I installed them correctly enough that mine doesn't smoke except on occassion.

Hope this is of some help to you.

I thought it sounded pretty noisy. Have you performed an oil engine flush on this engine before? It might go a long way to quietening the hydraulic tappets and cleaning out build up on the rings (bit of fuel system additive would help too). Use good quality valve stem seals like Felpro and they will last longer and seal better.

not a good idea to run engine oil flush on a high mile vehicle - it will clean it all right, then every worn part of the motor will make so much noise you will think it is going to explode. Use 1 quart of Rislone or Lucas oil fortifier instead to slowly clean out the motor.

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Originally Posted by royster

Valve stem seals are the #1 reason why these trucks will burn oil at start up. If the smoking slowly stops after a cold start up, you can be sure it's valve seals. If it's all the time, it could be a valve guide has slipped out of place. Rings are the last thing to suspect.

Valve seals can be replaced without removing the head.

Your tests will indicate what the problem is.

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Might as well change the valve stem seals while im doing this maintanence, is there a right-up on how to do it with the head still on?

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Originally Posted by geezer101

I thought it sounded pretty noisy. Have you performed an oil engine flush on this engine before? It might go a long way to quietening the hydraulic tappets and cleaning out build up on the rings (bit of fuel system additive would help too). Use good quality valve stem seals like Felpro and they will last longer and seal better.

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No i have not flushes the engine, i was thinking about dumping a bottle of seafoam down the intake to clean the vales, ive watched a youtube video of letting it sit for some time with the liquid sitting on the pistons to completley clean the cylinders, of course i will remove all 4 spark plugs so i do not hydrolock the motor, i did send my boroscope camera into the number 1 cylinder and saw alot of buildup on the valves, so this should clean them..
Heres a video of the results from youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6UeJXkzDW8

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Originally Posted by pennyman1

not a good idea to run engine oil flush on a high mile vehicle - it will clean it all right, then every worn part of the motor will make so much noise you will think it is going to explode. Use 1 quart of Rislone or Lucas oil fortifier instead to slowly clean out the motor.

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After i seafoam it should i put 20-50 generic oil with a quart of lucus?

The valve seal replacement procedure is sort of scattered on the forum...even my own write up is prolonged, because I was learning as I go. I will attempt to put together a comprehensive post here, but you really will do well to buy a shop manual for the truck. They're $20 at most auto parts stores, and the photos will help a bunch. Missing information from the manual (you'd be surprised) can be found here.

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If your truck is smoking, and a nicotine patch isn't working, look into replacing the valve guide seals before you panic about an expensive rebuild. They CAN be replaced while the head is still on the engine, though caution must be taken to assure valves don't slip into the cylinder when the keepers and springs are removed. The Chilton manual suggests setting the cylinder you're working on to be set at just-before TDC, the spark plug removed, and the cylinder stuffed with nylon rope. Once rope is stuffed as much as you can, turn the engine gently to TDC. The rope will support the valve while you replace the guides. After each cylder is serviced, back the engine to just-before TDC and remove the rope. (See the book or ask here if this suggestion isn't clear).

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NOTE: I meant 'Haynes' manual.
NOTE: Your hydrolic lifters are inside the rocker arms, and when you pull the rocker assembly up, out of its craddle, they'll tend to drop out, and possibly into the engine. Here's a helpful hint to avoid that : http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...ll=1#post26624

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Those with the 4G64 should know they have little hydrolic lifters in the rockerarms, and the first thing they try to do when you lift the assembly from its craddle is to escape. They look for the nearest exit, which happens to be the oil drain holes in the cylinder head.

Once you have the valve cover off, take the time to block those drain holes with rags or some suitable plugging material. I don't recommend expanding foam, but for the smaller holes, I did roll tight a paper towel, and cut it half: that plugged two holes.

Some people use tape to keep the lifters in place during removal and installation, but I used disposable mechanic's gloves. I cut the fingers off and used 'em like little rockerarm condoms. Balloons might work, but I don't think the latex could withstand the oil exposure. The mechanic's gloves are designed to do just that. 'Nothing worse than a condom breaking just when you need it most.

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Here's a link to my own build thread, note the menu in the very first post. This is NOT the best thread you could want, but the information is there as I bumble through my experiences, and experts post helping directions. http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin...ll=1#post25752

If you can indicate when you are going to do this, I will be happy to stand by and help with any questions and suggestions. I've subscribed to the thread (meaning I get an e-mail notice when you post here).

I'm originally from L.A., if that's any comfort :)

We don't have Seafoam over here in Oz and to be honest, it sounds gimmicky at best to me. Seems like all the stuff does is soak into the carbon build up, making it swell then letting compression and combustion do the rest. Spraying water into the intake of a running engine will do the same (without the smoke screen) or using a fuel additive and letting the treated fuel do the work. My suspicion of off-the-shelf engine oil flush being not much more than really over priced diesel fuel seems to be confirmed. I've used a mix of diesel and clean oil to flush a number of engines and it has silenced noisy hydraulics (gave wifeys' 2004 Elantra a flush and oil change and the HLA's in it were rattling like hell before the service).

I am a little worried about doing valve seals on an assembled engine as the spring collets could drop into the engine or just go flying out into the never-to-be-seem-again. With the head off you can give the valves a check over and lap them and do a general inspection of the condition of the head but the downside is the extra $$$ and time off the road. Plenty of people do the rope trick and manage to replace rock hard valve seals without running into grief. Depends on if you think it needs that level of maintenance.

I have Mitchell and AllData so no shop manual needed..

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Originally Posted by geezer101

We don't have Seafoam over here in Oz and to be honest, it sounds gimmicky at best to me. Seems like all the stuff does is soak into the carbon build up, making it swell then letting compression and combustion do the rest. Spraying water into the intake of a running engine will do the same (without the smoke screen) or using a fuel additive and letting the treated fuel do the work. My suspicion of off-the-shelf engine oil flush being not much more than really over priced diesel fuel seems to be confirmed. I've used a mix of diesel and clean oil to flush a number of engines and it has silenced noisy hydraulics (gave wifeys' 2004 Elantra a flush and oil change and the HLA's in it were rattling like hell before the service).

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Have you got a formula for that mixture Geez?

O.k. this is how I perform my engine flushes -

#1. Dump the current oil and drain the filter out as much as possible, then reinstall it

#2. Add 2 litres of fresh oil and add 0.5 litres of diesel fuel, then drive it for the rest of the day (guarantee this will not harm your engine and you should notice lifter noise will reduce within 5-10 mins of driving)

#3. Leave it overnight, start it again in the morning and bring it up to normal operating temperature (leaving it overnight will allow the diesel to continue to break up gunk in places like the lifters - and the flush oil will look filthy...)

#4. Dump the flush oil and replace the filter with a new unit, then fill to normal capacity (approx 3.6 litres - if you know your engine is tired now would be the best time to go up to a heavier weight oil)

I've been doing this to mine and wifey's car (both of which are Hyundais and are notorious for noisy hydraulics) and not only has significantly quietened them down but has extended the life of the oil and has had no adverse issues.

:thumbup:

GUna start the process tomorrow of trying to fix it cause under load or acceleration it has tons of smoke, and spark plug number 2 has wet oil on the electrode...

Im going to pull the whole head and take it to the shop, can i re-use the same head bolts? As ive already ordered a new head gasket and intake and exhaust gaskets also, but i cant find the head bolts for this 1991 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 2.4 anywhere, or im just blind...

I believe this question has recently been asked and the reason why you can't find new replacement head bolts are they are reuseable, thus no real demand for them.

After pulling off the exhaust i saw so much oil in the exhaust holes, so i take it being compression is good that oil in exhaust holes would be valve seals then correct?

After pulling off the exhaust i saw so much oil in the exhaust holes, so i take it being compression is good that oil in exhaust holes would be valve seals then correct?

I would put money on it. The valve seals are probably hard as ceramic. If it's going into a shop they should do a thorough job of inspecting it. New stem seals and a head freshen up cures most engines with oil consumption issues.

so these engines dont have problems with piston rings?

Your compression tests make it very unlikely there are ring problems allowing enough oil by to cause the smoke you describe.

As a general rule of thumb you'll experience oil burn from head issues way before piston and rings. Every Mitsubishi engine I've had that had suffered from oil burn was fixed by a cylinder head freshen up.

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Originally Posted by geezer101

As a general rule of thumb you'll experience oil burn from head issues way before piston and rings. Every Mitsubishi engine I've had that had suffered from oil burn was fixed by a cylinder head freshen up.

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Thanks, going to finish taking the head off today, im pulling it with the intake attached as the intake is a PITA to get off the head, plus i didnt have a 10mm allen yesterday to pull the head bolts...

Any news yet?

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Originally Posted by 85Ram50

Any news yet?

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ya man ive been so lazy and its been hot as satans nut sack here in california, well i got the resurfaced head on with new valve seals the the dam thing still smokes, im going to do a compression test tomorrow and ill let you know how it goes...

but im thinking bad rings, if i pull the engine all i have to do is change the rings correct? i can reuse the pistons and rods plus change the main and rod bearing?

You 'can' get away with replacing the rings only but there's a number of pitfalls in doing so. If the bores are ovalled out or have vertical wear grooves in them the rings will only be a band aid solution (it will also depend on the condition of the pistons as well). You'll get by with a light hone if the bores aren't showing signs of excessive wear (race engines are built with greater bore clearances, but are in by their nature designed to be pulled down and rebuilt every race season) so technically it's a feasible approach...

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Originally Posted by geezer101

You 'can' get away with replacing the rings only but there's a number of pitfalls in doing so. If the bores are ovalled out or have vertical wear grooves in them the rings will only be a band aid solution (it will also depend on the condition of the pistons as well). You'll get by with a light hone if the bores aren't showing signs of excessive wear (race engines are built with greater bore clearances, but are in by their nature designed to be pulled down and rebuilt every race season) so technically it's a feasible approach...

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so i can use the same bearings also? or do i have to change those too??

If you've got oil pressure issues, fragged bearings aren't going to help. This is one of those things where you won't know how bad it is until you've done a visual inspection and then it will be on you on the course of action. A big end or main journal bearing failure can cause catastrophic damage to the crank and/or rods. I think the oiling issues that plagued earlier 4G63 engines weren't an issue once they changed the head design, but it's still an engine. Change rings and hone the bores? - maybe. Bottom end bearings and crank inspection? - yeah, I personally would...and throw some new seals in it front and rear.

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Originally Posted by geezer101

If you've got oil pressure issues, fragged bearings aren't going to help. This is one of those things where you won't know how bad it is until you've done a visual inspection and then it will be on you on the course of action. A big end or main journal bearing failure can cause catastrophic damage to the crank and/or rods. I think the oiling issues that plagued earlier 4G63 engines weren't an issue once they changed the head design, but it's still an engine. Change rings and hone the bores? - maybe. Bottom end bearings and crank inspection? - yeah, I personally would...and throw some new seals in it front and rear.

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ok last question i should have for you for now, when looking on rock auto i see different rings like 0.020 over ect. which should i pick? I will link my RockAuto shopping cart and maybe get some pointers from you.. I just put "Standard" for all

My Shopping Cart!!!

This will also depend on your inspection. If they're stock pistons and the engine hasn't been thrashed, you'll need to measure ring gap and make a decision from that info.

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Originally Posted by geezer101

This will also depend on your inspection. If they're stock pistons and the engine hasn't been thrashed, you'll need to measure ring gap and make a decision from that info.

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What should ring gap be? And is that just on the 1st ring?

Sorry. IDK the factory specs but it should be in the manuals/PDF section of the site :shrug: