This starter solenoid can kiss my ass!

I've run out of ideas on this so maybe you guys can help.

Less than 6 months ago the starter solenoid started acting sluggish. It would spin but not engage. I had to hit it with the key 5 or so times before it would engage and fire right up. After the engine warmed up it would engage on the first try. Its a pretty new starter (Mits), a year, maybe a year and half old. I took it to the Zone and it tested good (yeah right, I thought). I put it on the bench and jumped it from the battery and it engaged and spun as expected. Ok then, I started looking elsewhere.

Battery voltage was good, but I took it down and had it tested. Good.

I tried jumping from another vehicle but it didn't help.

I ran a straight line from the positive post to the solenoid post, no help.

I ran a ground wire from the starter bolt to the main ground connector on the body no help.

I measured voltage at the solenoid post, battery voltage present.

I measured voltage from the ignition, battery voltage present.

So, off the truck it engages with the battery voltage, but on the truck it doesn't. What the hell? Any ideas before I start buying new parts that I'm sure I don't need?

Brushes might be sticking at times? I'd get it rebuilt if you can find a auto starter it has more cranking power then the one for a manual has!

Yeah, I been toying with the idea of opening the solenoid. But if I have to buy another starter, maybe the auto is worth looking at. Thanks!

Check your starter wire - flush the female spade connection with something to degrease it (might be grimy - I had a Mitsu that had an intermittent starter issue due to a dirty connection). If the solenoid appears to be binding - drown the sucker in WD40. Make sure all of the copper connections are polished up clean, the retaining nuts are tight and your leads are good.The solenoid is a big electromagnet, it's a biatch to pull apart because they're not meant to be disassembled. The actuator/throw out arm can be gotten to when you remove the starter motor armature, but this normally isn't the problem (it's something you repack in grease when you are doing a resuscitation on a tired/malfunctioning starter motor)

I did do all the connections. Didn't I mention that? :)
But yeah, I even wire wheeled all the ground locations just to make sure.

I think maybe its time I opened it up.

Just a thought about how advanced the timing is? Could be kicking back when cold but ok when hot. Would probably run pretty bad if it was like that tho

Hmm, you've done the 'everything' then. Time for a multimeter test. Check this definitive guide to troubleshooting a sucky starter motor -

http://startersolenoid.net/starter-solenoid/

Oooo here's a good one for Lucas starters at least. There's a rivet about half way down the body that the brushes earth through that's prone to working loose and giving dodgy internment faults. So possibly inspect the body as well if the brushes themselves are good (and the springs are too)

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Originally Posted by GotToGo

I did do all the connections. Didn't I mention that? :)
But yeah, I even wire wheeled all the ground locations just to make sure.

I think maybe its time I opened it up.

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did you by any chance get the life time warranty? it cost a little more but if you did get a bad one replace it free of charge.

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Originally Posted by tortron

Just a thought about how advanced the timing is? Could be kicking back when cold but ok when hot. Would probably run pretty bad if it was like that tho

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8 or 10 degrees. Rebuild was last year and its running great.

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Originally Posted by geezer101

Hmm, you've done the 'everything' then. Time for a multimeter test. Check this definitive guide to troubleshooting a sucky starter motor -

http://startersolenoid.net/starter-solenoid/

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Well I've metered everything I can think of, but I'll look this over. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by tortron

Oooo here's a good one for Lucas starters at least. There's a rivet about half way down the body that the brushes earth through that's prone to working loose and giving dodgy internment faults. So possibly inspect the body as well if the brushes themselves are good (and the springs are too)

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Maybe next time I take it out.

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Originally Posted by jamesw

did you by any chance get the life time warranty? it cost a little more but if you did get a bad one replace it free of charge.

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I think it has a limited lifetime, but that doesn't do any good if they test it and say its fine.

I went ahead and pulled it out today, again.

I took the cover off the starter and guess what, it looks like a brand new starter. And the brushes are clean and tight.

I pulled off the solenoid and it "seemed" ok. Everything moves freely and was lightly lubed. But when I pulled out the plunger it looked like there was some debris on it so I rubbed it with my finger and it was a little gritty. So I cleaned everything up and relubed it. Put it back in and turned the key.
Still didn't engage. But I tried again and bam, fired right up. It never did that when it was cold. So I'm going to let it sit overnight and try again in the morning. Even if it takes two tries to start, its better than it was and a good indicator that the problem is in fact with the solenoid. We'll see.

It was only going to be 3 things - jammed/gummed up actuator (bingo), broken/burnt out coil wire or a bad connection internally or externally. Starter motors can be elusive. I've seen new ones not work straight out of the box and I've done home overhauls with the same result even though everything should check out. Beat on them for a while - they start working perfectly. My theory is they need a tiny bit of 'burn in' before they make a solid connection on the armature contacts and to free up the actuator arm.

have you had your battery tested? i,m wonder if maybe the amps are to weak? just a thought

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Originally Posted by jamesw

have you had your battery tested? i,m wonder if maybe the amps are to weak? just a thought

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Haha! I am going to assume you didn't read the post.

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Originally Posted by GotToGo

Haha! I am going to assume you didn't read the post.

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Originally Posted by jamesw

have you had your battery tested? i,m wonder if maybe the amps are to weak? just a thought

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The usual indicator that the battery is struggling is the solenoid will kick, but the starter motor will not spin up fast enough to crank the engine and it progressively gets worse - that is of course your grounds and main power lead to the starter motor aren't fragged...

I went to start it this morning and it spun up but didn't engage. On the second try it fired right up. So at least there is some consistency to it. :)

I'm just going to run it like this for now. If it gets worse I can always spring for a new starter or solenoid.

I had Geronimo's original starter do this - it was the 2 plastic pieces that the arm pivot pin goes through. They had deformed over the years, and it would intermittently cause the arm to not move through the whole range of motion. My friend at the alternator shop had a junk starter he pulled the parts out of to fix it, but it finally got so bad the housing was shot, so I replaced it with an AutoZone starter to lifetime warrantee - they suck, but they hand you a new one when they fail - took me 5 to get one that mostly works.

I had Geronimo's original starter do this - it was the 2 plastic pieces that the arm pivot pin goes through. They had deformed over the years, and it would intermittently cause the arm to not move through the whole range of motion. My friend at the alternator shop had a junk starter he pulled the parts out of to fix it, but it finally got so bad the housing was shot, so I replaced it with an AutoZone starter to lifetime warrantee - they suck, but they hand you a new one when they fail - took me 5 to get one that mostly works. BTW - be careful with the auto starter - most of them have a Bendix with a different tooth count than the manual ones. For a stronger starter, use a starquest turbo starter - it has more cranking power and speed.

Thanks for the info. We'll see how this one does now.

Update:

After sitting for a few days (been busy), I went to start it again. It did the same fail on first try but start on second. So I think its an improvement.

GotToGo,
In a period of 2 years, my brother replaced the starter twice (lifetime warranty) 2.6L manual tranny... When cold, this engine always cranks but never starts on 1st try, 2nd try is the charm... This April, a new larger than original Interstate battery was installed; once today with warm engine, it cranked so slow & did not start as though the battery was nearly dead... Afterwards, all was good again, weird...

1) Some starters need shims to make proper contact with flywheel gears
2) 1/0 welding cable I read is excellent for use on battery & starter circuits

No malice intended,
George

UPDATE:

Well, it got bad again. The longer it sits the more tries it takes to get it to engage. I had enough so I went ahead and bought a really cheap starter from RockAuto (all the parts your car will NEVER need). :)

The new starter works great. Problem solved. However, when I looked at the old starter I noticed the Bendix was flopping all around. That don't seem right. And I don't think it was like that before. The new one certainly didn't flop around.

Now that I had something visual to take to the store, I decided to try returning it again. I showed the guy the floppy Bendix and he had no problem handing me a replacement. Woohoo! Now I have 2 starters.

I needed a win. It was a bad day prior to that.