Rejetting weber 32/36

[bbrewer2005]

So i got an 89 ram50 (2.6) from my grandfather after he passed this year. This truck means a lot to me (Im 30, i remember riding in this truck when I was just 5 or 6). Ive done a bunch too it to get it highway reliable. When his health started to decline, so did the maintenance on the truck.

I bought the weber 32/36 kit from webercarbsdirect, and the install was a breeze. Converted it to electric fuel pump that supplies the correct fuel pressure (pump is rated at 2-3.5psi without a regulator).

Here are my issues. The most concerning one is pinging/detonation. I thought I had that issue lined out when i first put the carb on the truck. I retarded the timing 1 degree at a time until it went away, then I retarded it 1 more degree after that. This is when the temps were still 80+ degrees out. Now that the cold weather has set in, the pinging came back, and I had to retard it more than it should be to compensate, as well as adding some 93octane fuel. It also diesels pretty bad when i shut it off when up to operating temp. Ive gotten around that by leaving it in drive when I shut it off (keeping a load on it prevents the dieseling).

Then today I pulled the plugs (new, less than 1000 miles) to have a look at them, and it is obviously running a little lean, hence my pinging and dieseling issue. I had suspected this a few times before, because the truck doesnt gain much power when the 2nd barrel opens up.

I have followed the lean drop mixture adjustments provided by both weber, and the guide i have found on this site to no avail.

Anyone else have these issues with the stock jetting on the 2.6?

In the last 1000 miles, I've replaced the fuel lines, distributor cap and rotor, plugs, and plug wires, belts, replaced every fluid in the truck all the way down to the brake fluid. Ran some fuel system cleaner through a tank of gas, etc. Im convinced it needs rejetted.
I must add, that ive never had any hesitation, except when the engine is cold, which is to be expected. It just pings, and lacks top end power.

Any idea where I should start?
Thanks!, Brian

[geezer101]

Hi and welcome to mightyram. I may be the bearer of bad news - webercarbsdirect sell knock off Webers. Although it sucks to be given a burn notice like this, you are not the only victim - http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2854-Thinking-about-buying-a-weber-carb-Becareful!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is absolutely nothing you can do to these crap copies of the 32/36 Weber carbs to to fix the lean/rich issue they inherently have. It's to do with the internal fuel metering galleries during their manufacturing. If you have a receipt and whatever else it came with, send it back and demand a refund. Go to Redline or one of the other reputable companies that distribute genuine Webers and it will end your running woes. The stock jetting in the 32/36 is in the ball park for the 2.6 and these carbs are more sensitive to ignition tuning than the Mikuni carb. It will make a huge difference to how your engine is currently running.

[BradMph]

Welcome to the forum. :)

Geezer is correct with these Weber copies. I bought one also, years ago and had the same issues. I was chasing problem after problem with this phony carb, which I thought I got a deal on. It just just came with a Weber name sticker on it. Not until I came here to the forum did I realize I got BS'd on the carb.
I ended up selling the carb on Craig''s list and explained it wasn't a true Weber, but thankfully the new owner knew all about these carbs and said it worked great on his Suzuki Samurai. Well I can't argue with that, lol. I turned around and bought a real Weber, re-jetted for a 2000ft elevation and haven't looked back.
The 2.6 can also support the 38 Weber as well, so research your needs and let us know your outcome after you make changes.

[bbrewer2005]

I read about this about 10 minutes after I made this post. I guess I'll just have to try to return it and go with the real deal. However, I don't remember seeing any stickers on it. I think mine has Weber cast right into the body of the carb. It does have the black electric choke, which seems to be a giveaway on a phony carb.

You said the 2.6 can take advantage of the 38/38. Is this with no modifications to the engine? The truck is 100% stock. The only "performance" mod I intend to do to this extremely anemic engine(aside from the carb) is ditch the clutch fan for an electric fan. I do plan on a swap a year or two down the road, but my race car is leeching all my funds at the moment. I'd rather not sink a TON of money building an engine that will still make less than 200whp in a 4000lb truck. Lol

If I can benefit from the 38 over the 32/36 on a stock 2.6 then I may just go that route.
Would you be willing to point me in the right direction? I looked on redlines website and didn't see anything for the ram50/mm, just monteros, etc. I'll need the whole kit with the adapters and all.

Thanks again! This site has been a life saver.

[bbrewer2005]

Update*** so I just got home a looked at the carb to be sure, and it is indeed a Chinese knockoff. It has a sticker with red Weber logo (W) on the float bowl housing.

[geezer101]

The 38/38 is overkill for a stock 2.6 engine. You will sacrifice a chunk of low down torque and a bit of midrange as well before this carb starts to do it's thing. The adapter kit that came with your junk carb will work with a genuine 32/36 Weber (about the only part that is any good from the whole kit) but if you want your money back, everything has to go with it. The factory recommended ignition tune isn't good for a stock engine and nerfed the way they ran straight up - when you swap the Mikuni for the Weber it is an improvement but the Weber has way more potential to increase overall performance. Try this method when you install the replacement carb -

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/6569-1986-2-0-ignition-timing?p=56600&viewfull=1#post56600

The post is directed to the G63B engine, but this technique yields results on all Mitsubishi neanderthal tech engines running carbs and distributors (in fact, this works well on most distributor-fired engines...)

[bbrewer2005]

Lots of good info there. Thanks again!

I found the right kit on redlineweber's website. They are closed today, and dont have the prices listed on the website. Any idea how much they cost over the webercarbsdirect knockoffs?

[geezer101]

Got a link to a genuine Redline kit on ebay - https://www.ebay.com/itm/K614-Mazda-Dodge-Chrysler-Mitsubishi-Kit-Weber-32-36-DFEV-Carb-1-Yr-Warr/202112461448?hash=item2f0ed76a88:g:5bgAAOSw4bVTobg j&vxp=mtr

Pretty good - you get the open air filter thrown into the deal but I wouldn't use the filter. The engine really needs a source of cool air to stave off detonation.

[pennyman1]

The stock air filter supplied with the weber carb kits are too short to be effective - they make the air bend too much to make it into the top of the carb. the filter needs to be at least 2.5 inches tall or better to get good airflow.

[bbrewer2005]

Maybe that filter is causing my detonation? Doesnt make sense why it wasnt pinging in 80+ degree temps but is in 40 degree weather.

I've pretty much written off ebay. I dont like buying from the auction sites much anymore. As for redline, today makes the 3rd attempt to reach them during normal business hours, to no avail. I get redirected to an answering machine, to which my calls were not returned. It is 2017, not 1997. Why are we not able to purchase right off the website? They dont even have their prices listed. Is there an actual distributer that is in the 21st century that doesnt sell knockoff stuff? lol

[bbrewer2005]

UPDATE**
So I was just gathering all the extras from the china weber in preparations to send it back. They had a paper in the box that says they have a 30 day return policy. It's been about 45ish days. I ordered it oct-11th. I could have sworn i got it in august. (My internal calender is jacked lately) On the same page it also goes on about how they are manufactured all over the world on liscense from Weber. Almost like they are passively saying they aren't real.

It sounds like they (webercarbsdirect) are covering their bases here. Do I have a leg to stand on with trying to return it, or am I screwed with a $270 paper weight? They are closed until Monday due to the holidays.

[pennyman1]

They will try to say no, but be persistent with them and they will refund you the money. They don't have a leg to stand on with the carb - its junk and they know it. It is actually a solex copy (weber workalike) they are passing off as a weber - they own both copyrights.

[geezer101]

They know what they're selling - and they have been doing it for a long time. You do have consumer rights above and beyond their warranty/guarantee but this might be one of those things where you are out of luck. Send them an email stating that you have exhausted your options trying to tune this carb to run as it has an internal metering fault that can't be rectified.

*from what I can gather, webercarbsdirect (lets call them WCD) is a mailing house where you send an order, they contact the company in China and they freight it back via WCD. They don't have a workshop to repair or examine their shitty carbs or supply spares for them. Look on Alibaba - they are probably getting these piles of junk for as little as $20 a piece...

[bbrewer2005]

Ok so Just got off the phone with webercarbsdirect. I told them about the metering gallery fault and made an elaborate ruse as to how I determined the carb was bad. I never mentioned the fact that i knew it was chinese junk at this point.

He said they were going to ship me a new one. This is when I dropped the "I want my money back because I know they are chinese clones" speech.
At this point, he said they had a mixed inventory, and had a few of the real ones on hand. He said this one will have weber cast into the body instead of the sticker. I said ok. So hopefully this is the real deal coming and not just a body with junk parts in it.

Im wondering if they keep a few of the real ones on hand in the event someone calls in to call them out on the fake webers.

Wish me luck. I will make another post to let you all know what I recieved.

[geezer101]

Fingers crossed for you. With the number of these carbs that are sent back to WCD they should know the drill by now. The thing that bugs me the most is that the manufacturer(s) of the knock offs are capable of changing the machining process to fix this problem but won't. They do have actual Webers they can use as a reference and reverse engineer....

[bbrewer2005]

OK So I just recieved the replacement carb. The housing is definitely a true weber. Says made in spain, and weber cast into the body. The accelerator pump housing also has weber cast into it. The only thing that is still throwing me off is the electric choke. It is still black plastic, not the white. However, the ring holding it down is of a goldish, brass color, instead of the polished ring. Does this sound legit, or possibly a remanufactured weber?

[pennyman1]

if it is a dfav, that is correct for the Spanish weber. If it is a dgev , then I am not sure what to think. I doubt they would swap the choke and leave the rest weber.

[geezer101]

if it is a dfav, that is correct for the Spanish weber. If it is a dgev , then I am not sure what to think. I doubt they would swap the choke and leave the rest weber.

...unless it's a rebuilt Weber with an aftermarket choke on it.

[pennyman1]

true - wouldn't put it past them...

[bbrewer2005]

OK so the truck does run much better around town and does a noticable bit better on the highway but something still isnt right. It has a substantial amount more torque in first and second gear. 3rd gear and od, it is still noticable, but not as much. I'm guessing that is normal for an engine thats not known to have much power to begin with. lol

My major issue is idle. I cannot properly tune this carb because I have to run in the throttle stop 3-4 turns for it to idle at the correct rpm. The chinese clone that was on it before idled much better. I was able to get the idle right pretty quick following the guide from redline weber.
Following redline weber guide to initial tuning says I shouldnt have to screw it in (throttle stop) more than 1 1/2, to 2 turns in once the screw touches the linkage, or there are other issues. It doesnt matter where I put the idle mixture screw, it wont stay running without it screwed in a full 2 turns, and doesnt idle at the correct rpm unless its in 3+ turns.

Something else worth noting. I can run the idle mixture screw all the way to bottom out (or spring bind, not sure which is happening first) and the rpm will increase a tiny bit and smooth out a bit. I know this should not be happening. I've got it about 1 1/2 turns out right now. I would much rather have it running a little rich, than lean.
Also,a few days before I swapped the carbs, I used my timing light to correctly set the base timing at 7* btdc. That seemed to help a bit even on the clone.

Im seriously wondering if this is a rebuilt weber. It came in a bland cardboard box wrapped in a plastic bag with no other accessories or paperwork.

[geezer101]

Something smells a little funky. A new, genuine factory Weber will always come in a Redline box with everything. I am tending to think that your carb, albeit a real Weber, has been rebuilt and probably isn't jetted right. There are a number of things that aren't commonly known about using the Weber. First up - it is a vacuum BEAST. Internal vacuum on a Weber is higher than the Mikuni and this impacts the vacuum advance on the distributor, forcing it to advance faster than the regular timing curve. Secondly (and directly tied into the vacuum situation) is the engine will become more sensitive to tuning with the Weber. Forget using 'the book' when setting your timing. Once you have found the base 7 degrees BTDC you will need to manually dial in your distributor. Start the engine, undo the distributor retaining nut, hold your engine rpm @ 2000 and swing the distributor gently between advance/retard until you notice engine rpm increases by itself. Retard the timing just a touch from that point and lock the distributor up. You have to understand that the Weber will sacrifice a little of one thing to make gains elsewhere. You can get the distributor modified to iron out the over-advance.

[bbrewer2005]

OK Thanks, I wasnt aware of that at all. Im somewhat familiar with fly weights and springs to change the advance curve. My experience with that has always been on small block ford v8's. Is there a kit out there for optimum performance for a stock 2.6 with a weber? Since I've put it at base 7*, I havent noticed any detonation. I put about 20 highway miles on it today at 75+mph.

As for the jets, the only ones I can see are 165 and 160. These are the two visible that are next to the barrels/venturi. They are the same as the ones visible in the 1st clone I got. Where are the other jets located and what size should they be? If needed, I still have the clone I can swap the jets from.

Lastly, my cluster doesnt have a tachometer, nor do I have an aftermarket tach. any way to check this easily with a multimeter? I may buy a cheap tach for testing. If I go this route, which is the best wire to tap into for tach signal? One of the wires off the ballast resistor?

[geezer101]

75+ MPH is an indicator that you've got it tuned in the zone so to speak - if you were peaking @ 65ish that would indicate the tune is falling flat. I would get my hands on a combination dwell/tacho tool. They are sort of redundant for todays cars but they do come in handy on occasion. You could always add a couple of gauges to your truck, they go a long way in telling you something is up before an idiot light tells you "I just died, thought I'd let you know...". I am lucky enough to have a truck with a tach but the extra volt, vac and oil pressure gauges I fitted are a good insurance policy. There is a wire in the back of the instrument panel socket especially for a factory tach - tap into that. They made an allowance for it so the wiring harness can be used across different optioned trucks.

[bbrewer2005]

Well I've got the idle mixture screw ran all the way in. It runs the best here and does well, but im not leaving this rigged junk on. I've been trying to get ahold of these people since Monday. Their main line gives a busy signal no matter what time of day, and their warranty line just says can't connect right off the rip. I am wondering if they changed numbers or closed up shop.
Either way, the truck is going to stay parked until I get one from redline Weber. My family keeps asking what I want for Christmas, maybe a new one will be here soon. Lol

I will get the last laugh though. Was just time to replace my debit card. I had the numbers changed. They sent me a return label and box for the first carb to go back in. They don't make it right, they won't get either one back.

[pennyman1]

For it to run well with the screw all the way in means the jets are way out of size for the motor. Best get one with the right jets in it that is new, then rejet the other one later.

[geezer101]

For it to run well with the screw all the way in means the jets are way out of size for the motor. Best get one with the right jets in it that is new, then rejet the other one later.

Probably jetted for a 2.0, it will struggle all the way through the rpm range. The primary jets are the critical fuel supply point. Look at the plugs, they should tell you how lean it has been running.

[bbrewer2005]

What are all the factory jet sizes? I still have the 1st knockoff clone I got. I could use the jets out of that carb?

[bbrewer2005]

UPDATE***
(geezer - The plugs looked lean from the 1st clone i had on here. I will clean them with carb cleaner and a light wire brush and recheck them.)

So i took the tops off both carbs and the jets were all the same, except for the air jets(? ones up top) were reversed from carb to carb.

Here is what they were when i pulled them apart;
Idle
Primary - 60
Secondary - 50

Main jets
Primary - 137
Secondary - 140

Air jets
Primary - 165
Secondary - 160
* These two were swapped 160/165 in the 1st clone.

I swapped both idle jets from the knockoff to the rebuilt weber thats on the truck now and it made no difference, but the knockoff idled much better about 2 turns out (idle mixture).

So for giggles I replaced the original 60 primary idle jet to a 50 from the other carb, and presto, perfect idle at 1-3/4 turns out instead of all the way in. Im thinking the knockoffs idle jet passage probably wasnt flowing more than what a 50 or 55 idle jet would, even if there was a 100 jet in it, if that makes sense.

I also replaced the primary main jet from 137 to a 140. so now both main jets are 140/140 instead of 137/140. This made what I can only call, a massive difference in part throttle acceleration. This was a much needed improvement, now I dont have to mat the pedal to accelerate with normal flow of light to light traffic.WOT didnt change much because I didnt mess with the secondary main jet (just have 2 137s and 2 140s).

It is very interesting how with the same exact jets, that they ran SO much different between the two. I have however come to the conclusion that this is a real weber body, with some of the parts being clones. I can only assume that it has been remanufactured at some point with inferior parts.

Does anyone here know what jets their redline weber 32/36 dfav came with from the factory, so I can compare? I cant get a solid answer from google.

[geezer101]

So now you see why these knock offs are garbage. The metering galleries in the carb body aren't milled properly and it strangles the flow needed for the jets to pick up and atomise the fuel. The typical symptom is this lean/rich paradox that shouldn't exist under normal conditions.

[bbrewer2005]

Yes it is extremely frustrating. There are other issues that need attention but id like to have the engine running well before I go digging into other things. This is really slowing me down. lol
Now I'm debating on just buying a jet kit or biting the bullet and buying a new kit from redline.

[geezer101]

These are the recommended jets for a 2.0 but the difference for the 2.6 will be in the primary/progressive being slightly bigger - http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/5024-Weber-jetting-correct?p=44111&viewfull=1#post44111

[bbrewer2005]

That is some good info. Thanks again.
I've been playing with this thing all evening. I've got it running pretty good. It is running the best it ever has, all the way around. Idle is smooth, snappy revs even after sitting at idle for 10 min. Changing the primary idle and main jet massively improved low end torque and worked wonders for throttle response and idle quality. It breaks the tires loose from a dead stop without using the brakes. Something it would not do before. Im at 1-1/2 turns on the idle mixture screw now.
I think i may just get a jet kit to try to squeeze a little more out of the top end, and I will be happy. I feel like trying to get my money back from this carb is a lost cause. Id rather not spend another $300 when this one is super close to what I expected.

You guys helped a ton with this. Thank you all so much!
Check for my upcoming post about setting valve lash. Its got some valve chatter on down revs and holding the rpm steady at higher rpm. Thinking it needs adjusted.

[geezer101]

Out of curiosity, did you have a crack at using my tune method? I'm stoked that you have got the Weber working well now.

[Werks]

I can only add my experience, I'm not an expert and I'm still working out the bugs

atm I have
55 idles
145/140 prim/sec fuel
170/175 prim/sec air correctors

4g54, extractors, wideblock industrial bottom end, forged industrial crank, forklift oil pump (no balance shafts) m6 head, ported mani.

7 deg btdc at idle, roughly 32-35 at WOT

Ive been told by a few old petrol heads, but its all just here say so pull me up on any of it:
To run both idle jets the same size.
Fuel jets are large steps, air correctors are to fine tune.
Dropping a step in air correctors richens it, larger leans. vice versa for fuel jets.
Check and play with your timming every time you change a jet. At idle and WOT
Make sure you throats are as closed as possible when idling, and your throttle cable isn't to tight.
Go by what Redline/weber documents say about best lean mixture, experiment from there on
4g54s, being they are all torque, the secondary acts as a supplement to the primary
Even stock identical motors may need to be jetted slightly different
Its a 3 way balance of idle and WOT timming, idle jets, prime and sec throat jetting to find smooth transition, power and economy.

My ute was in storage for a few years, pulled it out and it had a noticeable lack of power, dieseling, bogging, allsorts.

Turns out my vac advance diaphragm was leaking, so I had to replace it.
In Australia misti bits are still plentiful (although no one really wants them) and theres a myriad of heads, piston, crank, dizzy and cam/valve train options.
I found between the 4g62, 4g63, 4g52 and 4g54 depending on the type of vehicle be it passenger, commercial or industrial, some had different numbered armatures into the dizzy, and I'm guessing this is how much the vac will pull the internal advance.
I know I have an old turbo hall effect dizzy somewhere, and I'm pretty sure that retards the spark as opposed to advances...
I'm yet to have the time to play around, and theres not too many out there left with the knowledge.


Make sure your diaphragm holds constant vac ^_^

[bbrewer2005]

I wish i could just throw a fitech plug and play efi setup on this. This would be sooo much easier. Im an efi guy. lol I tune my own race car (turboed sn95 cobra) with a laptop, but im a newbie with carbs. My limited carb experience has been on holley double pumpers. Same concept though.

I think the primary, and idle jets are pretty close. The secondary jets need some tuning still. I can feel the spot in the pedal when the secondary barrel starts to open up. Past this point isnt a huge difference from just the primary barrel being open. Like I said before, part throttle (primary barrel) is running very well.

Geezer, I havent yet. I still need to buy a cheap tach before I can do that. Its still at 7btdc at idle with no vac to the distributor. Would you recommend your method over buying the correct weights and springs for the advance? Or is this method just to get close with the factory springs and weights?

[geezer101]

The Weber is a tricky beast. It generates more internal vac than the asthmatic Mikuni and as a consequence, ramps the advance. Seeming you can pick the point where the secondaries open up, this is the gateway to midrange power. If you can hold the engine at that point and swing the distributor through advance/retard and take note of where the rpm increases, then bump it back a tiny bit, this should improve engine performance. It does come at a price by affecting low down but you can't have your cake and eat it too. The engine needs a max total of 32-35 degrees advance when it's on it's feet. You will find it's base advance is going to be more than 7 degrees, but it will also run better. I think the amount of cash you'd throw at re-dialling a distributor would only be justified for competition.

[givememelon]

Hello! I'm having the same possible jetting issue. 89 ram 50, 2.0, automatic with a brand new weber DFEV. Idle speed screw set at 1 1/2 in and mixture screw at 2 out. It barely idles enough to stay alive. I still need to check the timing, but it feels like more than that. Who knows about re jetting?