1st gen front disc

[85Ram50]

I'm gonna replace the rotors calipers, hoses and pads. I want to know where to get the correct inner/outer knuckle bearings or if it is even necessary to change them. There is only 4WD bearings on RA and web searching leaves me leery. I'm not eve sure how hard they would be to press if I don't have the cup for it.

[geezer101]

Use the complete assemblies from a Gen II truck and ditch the solid rotors for vented discs. Knocking bearings and cups out and installing new ones with punch pins and drifts can be done - just be patient and gentle to avoid damaging the replacement cups and ensuring they seat squarely. If you go for the bolt on brake swap, take one apart and use the bearings and cups as a sample into a bearing shop.

[85Ram50]

Thanks Geez. I'm just staying stock on the brakes for now. Its only got 111Kish miles on it. I stopped in at a NAPA one town over and they had the bearings and seals, all on the shelf. About $45 At least what his book told him my truck took :) Its nice today but I don't feel up to it. Maybe in a few days once the storms coming pass over again. I have a press. I don't have the cups I should for it, but maybe a big socket or the removed parts will work.

[pennyman1]

the 2nd gen rotors are not a direct swap - there is an offset if used with 1st gen calipers. the bearings and seals are the same, however.

[geezer101]

the 2nd gen rotors are not a direct swap - there is an offset if used with 1st gen calipers. the bearings and seals are the same, however.

That's why I referred to them as 'complete assemblies' (steering hubs, calipers and rotors). Saves time pulling everything apart and eliminates compatibility issues. I'll get there one day lol

[85Ram50]

I already got the calipers, rotors and pads I had forgotten about bearings until they arrived and just happened to find them today after posting this. Always seems to work like that for me, post a question then suddenly the answer falls into my lap :) dumb luck I guess.

[85Ram50]

I got it up on jacks and took the wheels off. It is filthy. I took some pics before and after a bit of scraping away 30 years of built up dirt and grease. I also opened up the lower fender on the pass side and sure enough it dumped a load of wet dirt. Well at least its clean now.

I have scraped up and hosed down both sides of the suspension parts they both look like the dirty one I show. I removed the bumper and that splash guard thing. I'm reading the manual to be sure I do all I can right. What shocks fit here? They look a lot shorter than the spring assist Gabriel's I used on the back.n How hard is it to press these ball joints?
Before cleaning- 17915 17916 17917
After cleaning- 17912 17913 17914

[85Ram50]

Is the Mitsubishi Ball Joint good? I found a pair of MB176309 uppers and I am wondering if I should go with them or ??? Moog seems to be way over priced and I have heard they have gone down in quality.
EDIT- I found a pair of Moog lowers for $20 off and uppers for $15 off so I got em on RA. Here is the eBay link to the Mitsu upper ball joints $20 each http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Replacement-Ball-Joint-MB176309-/301951759348?fits=Year%3A1985%7CMake%3ADodge%7CMod el%3ARam+50&hash=item464dba33f4:g:7k0AAOSwQNRXL4Rw&vxp=mtr
I went for ball joints, new upper control Arm Shafts, new Stab bar link, new lower shaft bushings. Still have to figure out what shocks best pair with the spring assist Gabriel's I just put on the back.
EDIT- Let me know if I am missing something I should do.
Is the relay bar (pic) in the FSM the same thing as the moog "front tie rod adjusting sleeve"?
Moog only offers an Idler Arm bushing kit. Is that sufficient or should I change out the idler arm when I do the pitman and tie rods?

17921

[ragragtimetime]

I got it up on jacks and took the wheels off. It is filthy. I took some pics before and after a bit of scraping away 30 years of built up dirt and grease. I also opened up the lower fender on the pass side and sure enough it dumped a load of wet dirt. Well at least its clean now.

I have scraped up and hosed down both sides of the suspension parts they both look like the dirty one I show. I removed the bumper and that splash guard thing. I'm reading the manual to be sure I do all I can right. What shocks fit here? They look a lot shorter than the spring assist Gabriel's I used on the back.n How hard is it to press these ball joints?
Before cleaning- 17915 17916 17917
After cleaning- 17912 17913 17914


nice work!

[85Ram50]

nice work!

Thanks but I did it just so I oculd remove everything. I'm doing a little at a time. Had to get a breaker bar to get the caliper body off. I've dropped the tie rod ends and will be going for the hubs next. There is still a lot of gunk in there behind the rotor protection plate.
Edit- Just scraped some more and still finding fasteners buried in hardened grease. IDK for sure but I am supposed to replace the strut bushings along with all this other new stuff Right? the only thing I haven't got in its way is the strut bushings and sway bar bushings. I'm guessing they should be done when I am doing the link.
I'm debating myself if I should replace the rotors and bearings right now. The rotor looks good, the pads were old but not fully worn and the grease inside the cap on the one hub I took off was hard but everything looked new and it spins what I would consider normal. how loose should it be? Maybe I'll just add it to the pile with the extra clutch I got. That's a story. I ordered one from a company and they sent me a different brand. I notified them and they just sent me another clutch! didn't want the other one back.

[85Ram50]

Well I had to go get another larger (1/2") breaker bar for the knuckle ball joint nuts and it turns out 3 are 24mm and one is 7/8"!

EDIT- I've got the hub and brake shield off on the passenger side. I am going to change the bearings and use the new rotors after all. Got stopped by the need for a pickle fork. I didn't know that it was just hanging on by compression as i removed the jack and it did not drop the spring then I posted in the shoutbox and did an online search only to find i left it in a very dangerous state. I dug into the recycle bin and retrieved the castle nuts put them back on and will get the pickle fork after I tear down the other side. link showing how to remove the spindle/knuckle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1akqSJE0ss

[85Ram50]

Got the pickle fork and the lower ball joint gave way just as in that video. I didn't have the strut bar and bottom stop removed so the spring didn't fall out but once you are sure it is released of all tension you can push the lower control arm down and the coil will come out. The upper ball joint hung onto the top of the spindle. I did some research and the best way after wasting a lot of energy with the pickle fork and pitman arm puller is to smack the outer section of the spindle right where the ball joint goes through with a big hammer. I use a 4lb with a short handle. Two smacks and each dropped right out. Now I need to figure out the exact size of the nut that holds the pitman arm in as my 14" adjustable is too short and too fat to fit on at a safe angle for me. The 1 1/8th wrench I have is just a hair too small.
EDIT-The nut is 30mm the oreillys pitman arm puller would not fit because the grabbers were too fat to get the puller on fully centered. It went on to where I could get the push pin to connect but that push pin is too narrow and it has a button on top that prevents using a socket and breaker bar.
Edit2- got it off had to get a kit at harbor freight with a pulled the right size. Then I realized I did not mark the location to replace the new pitman in!! Any help with setting the pitman arm in the right position would be appreciated. I will be using the ties rods as is to set the length of the new ones.

[pennyman1]

there is a line on the shaft that you line up with the mark on the pitman arm

[85Ram50]

:thumbup:Thanks Pennyman. It's a relief.

[85Ram50]

Updating- I got the upper control arm shafts out. See other thread in this section of the forum. The nuts on the end are 33mm.
The ball joints in the upper arm have snap rings on the underside. You can pull it off with a good vise grip,(there is just enough edge for a good flat faced Vgrip to grab) it destroys them but the new one comes with. To press them out if you have press but no cups use a 32mm socket it is perfect size.
I also rebuilt the hubs this morning. Save the inner races for pressing the new bearing races in! They go in a lot further than you might think is ok and you will think they will get stuck but they come back out easy.
The outer bearing comes off as instructed by the manual hitting a screw driver or flat punch it on the 3 scalloped divots you can see from the other side in the flat that it seats on. The inner bearing and oil seal can be pressed with a 30mm socket and I put a 27mm socket on top of it to get the length (these are 3 inch long heavy duty sockets) It pushes out the oil seal and bearings. I have the harbor freight 12 ton press with a 20 ton bottle jack in it. Their 12 ton bottle jack died.
Then you have to hammer out the inner race the same way you do the front. You can clean up the grease if you like. I did I want all new stuff in there.
To press in the new races I used a 1/8x3 piece of plate steel I have to get the inner race flush, then I put the old race on top of the new one and the plate again and press it. You have to go until the old race is almost flush with the outer surface to get the new race seated. You can knock the old one out again in the same way you did the first time. Then grease up the bearings and place them on the race and the oil seal over it. Using the plate I press it flush.

In the outer race it sits almost flush just placing it there so I use the old race from the start and do the same thing checking that it is fully seated. This is a good reason to remove the grease from the inside, it makes it easier to see if you have them properly seated.
I've got most of the parts I ordered and only have to clean up the areas of the truck where they mount before putting it all back together now.

[85Ram50]

This disc job turned into a front end rebuild. In the first pic I have temp installed the Moog stablizer bar link. I am unsure if that is the correct way. Please let me know. 17955
OK I have the spindles back on and all the new stuff on the control arms and the sway/strut bars. Let me know if anything looks wrong please. This is the first time I have done this.
After this I have to install the new steering parts. What is that red/Pink color code on my coils? The FSM does not have a red on the color code list. I have the cotter pins taped up in case I did something wrong it will be easier to take things apart.
Pictures :) 17956 17957 17958 17959 17960 17961
The first thing I did was to put in the new brake line and new calipers. They rusted because I was messy with the brake fluid.

[pennyman1]

where is the lower bump stop? If you run with no lower stop you will hyper extend the ball joints and blow them out. I run Geronimo with the stock ones cut in half - that is the most to shorten them without ball joint damage, unless you convert to Uni-ball joints like 4 wheelers use.

[85Ram50]

Sorry I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. I put new bushings on the struts and sway bar and connected the bump stop after I took these pics. They are on bolted through the struts as per OE. Edit- Actually you can see the drivers side bump stop in the new strut bushing pic

[pennyman1]

just keeping you safe - most people don't think about the way the suspension moves and misses that the stops are there to limit travel of the ball joints.

[85Ram50]

I feel stupid but I can't find how to tighten the castle nuts on the ball joints or the tie rods in the FSM. There is a list of specs at the end of the suspension chapter but IDK if that is for both or just the 4WD. mine is 2WD. How tight does one make them?

[geezer101]

If there's only one torque recommendation I'd say that that it will be for both. I doubt there would be different torque settings for the ball joints anyway.

[85Ram50]

Thanks Geez. Rained out most of the day. I cleaned up the relay rod and put together the two tie rods holding them up next to the old ones. I used anti seize on the threads. I also got the hubs on during a break in the rain. Took more grease than I expected to fill them back to where they were. All I have left is to remove the old idler arm mount and install the new steering linkage then do the brakes and then make sure everything is greased and torqued. Edit- You can use a 2 inch PVC coupling to help you get the caps back on over the hub nut without denting it. It covers about 1/3rd of the lip, you can knock it in and rotate it to get the rest of it.
The Moog tie rod end that goes to the driver side did not have a place to screw in a grease zirt. It has a rubber boot which I assume has grease in it. All the rest of the new moog joints in the steering linkage I put together came with grease zirts for me to install. Is this normal or did I get a tie rod end that isn't up to snuff?

[pennyman1]

you can drill the tie rod and screw in a zerk fitting, or use a needle made to fit in a grease gun and inject grease into it around the boot.

[85Ram50]

Hopefully this gets seen fast as weather is coming.
OK I have run into a problem. I set the idler arm then connected the tie rods on each side so I figured the pitman should line up with the other end of the relay bar. The relay bar did not line up with the pitman arm with the steering wheel set straight and the front wheel on the driver side where I was working set straight.
Here's what I did. I removed the pitman then realized I could turn it so I set the pitman with the marks again and turned it to make it meet the relay bar. So far so good. I have the tie rods connected with the castle nuts screwed until I met resistance by hand. So I went into the cab to set the steering wheel and turned it to set the front driver wheel hub/rotor straight. Took off the cover and went to check the pass side to be sure and I see it is turned in while the driver is straight. !?!?!?!?!?
When I set the tie rods yesterday I copied the existing rods length exactly. I laid them side by side and they were in the same alignment and length. Clearly I missed something, maybe one of the little balls was tilted and gave me an optical illusion.
Anyway I assume this means I need to adjust it. Please let me know how to get it right asap. I understand the point of the lock nut and the left handed threads I just don't know enough to feel safe just making it look straight. I intend to take it in for an alignment when I am done.

This is how it looked when I first installed it. 17968 Just to show the removal tool.17970
This is it installed 17969 Not sure you can see the pass side is turning in, 17971

[85Ram50]

So I messed about with things and tightened up the castle nuts on the steering from the driver side toward the passenger. I removed the tie rod end on the passenger side and held the rotor straight and it seems like tightening things up fixed things as the tie rod end lined up with the hole so I figured it was close enough to drive it to the shop for an alignment.
I painted the new calipers to inhibit any more rust. I have the brakes back on the passenger side and am at a standstill as I lost two of the pins for the driver side. I ordered all 8 from Napa. It will be two days before they get here.
I jacked up the lower control arms and torqued the ball joints and all castle nuts are tight. Everything is tight I'm down to just that brake caliper and bleeding the system. Seems like I over greased the idler arm as a lot came out at the base of the boot while I tightened it. I just wiped it off and everything seems fine. Oh the sway bar link doesn't get tightened until I have it sitting on its wheels. There is a torque spec in the manual.
Edit- the bad weather never showed.

[85Ram50]

Update- The pins Napa got were the same cotter pins with a straight side that Rock Auto sent me. I went to another store and they found a hardware kit with the correct pins but they could not get it. They gave me a printout. The kit with the correct pins is Centric Front disc hardware kit 117.45012 It gives all of the removable parts so Ill be installing them whenever they get here. I had just cleaned up the other parts. $18 for the kit $26 and change with delivery.
Edit- There is a kit on eBay for $15.01 but with delivery it still comes out to $26. I used CarID

[pennyman1]

the pins on the plate are there just to locate the plate and keep it from sliding out - they can be the one side flat pins if they don't bind with the caliper. The confusing thing with the 1st gen front ends is the fact that only one side of the tie rods is adjustable, which makes it harder to get the front end lined up. It also requires you to pull the steering wheel to center the wheel when the wheels are pointing straight. Most alignment places do not know that, or will charge you crazy money to pull the wheel to center it.

[85Ram50]

Thanks Pennyman. The pins RA sent fit loosely and are 3 times longer then the OE clips. I figured they would pop out under stress. At least this way I get the other new pieces too. That way I am 100% rebuilt.
I'm thinking I was posting too fast before I tightened up the castle nuts on the steering. It looks OK now that its all tight. Both sides can be adjusted too. The driver side would probably need a new lock nut since they are meant to be used only once all the other adjusting spots are castle nuts with pins. I never did put the grease zerk in as I could not find one. If I do manage to run across one I will probably put it in.
I am fine pulling the wheel myself. I have had it off before. I'll make sure it is straight before I go in for the alignment. I might even consider going to the Mitsubishi dealer who has the micro fiche to look up the parts Dodge can't or won't to be sure they know what they are looking at.

[85Ram50]

the pins on the plate are there just to locate the plate and keep it from sliding out - they can be the one side flat pins if they don't bind with the caliper. The confusing thing with the 1st gen front ends is the fact that only one side of the tie rods is adjustable, which makes it harder to get the front end lined up. It also requires you to pull the steering wheel to center the wheel when the wheels are pointing straight. Most alignment places do not know that, or will charge you crazy money to pull the wheel to center it. I just realized what you meant by the Tie rods being adjustable only on one side. I guess I figured loosening the locking nut and taking the castle nut off on the passenger side to adjust it was normal.

[85Ram50]

Brake parts finally arrived. Hoping for clear weather this weekend. One more thing that pad shaped metal piece that has the lips meant to cause squealing to warn you its time to change pads, is that mandatory? I tossed them because they were too rusty to sand and paint.

[geezer101]

Those are anti-rattle shims. Some brake pads come with a thick layer of...something-or-rather which acts like an anti rattle shim (and can cause the pads to sit out of square too). You should be able to find new ones as I'm pretty sure I saw them on a site selling various brake parts.

[85Ram50]

Does that mean I need them? FSM says they are anti squeal shims. Its pretty tight just with the new pads I don't think they would fit anyway.
I'm going nuts over here. I just took apart the side that I did not have enough pins for and replaced the parts with the new and it went right back togetherand the rotor spun free. Then I took apart the side that was complete to put new stuff in and it won't go back together!!!!! OK I put the inner shim in backwards so I changed that and it still won't go together. One side pops out when I do the other or that inner slim shim pops out. I went to look at the other side to check and it looks like I bent the anti rattle spring! but it seems fine otherwise. It doesn't help that pain is distracting me and I have to sit on the part that hurts most. Not a joke. Atrophied glute and sitting crushes whats left and it aint fun.
OK so the book has nothing new. I guess I just have to keep trying.

[85Ram50]

I took a grinder to it. Even though it is a rebuilt the edges on those slopes were beat up and I smoothed out the shims. It went together but the rotor is tight. It takes some effort to spin it. Is this something that will loosen up on the road or should it spin free like the other side does?

[geezer101]

Both rotors should spin relatively freely. It will cause drag on the rotor, prematurely wearing the pads and causing hot spots on the rotor. It shouldn't take a lot of effort to turn the rotor (there will be a bit of contact with new pads but they will bed in). The brake piston might have some kind of damage/rust or just bound up from contaminated brake fluid and may require cleaning.

[85Ram50]

The calipers and rotors are new rebuilds. Just out of the box new bearings pressed into the spindle. I sprayed it with brake cleaner and it started moving easier once the fluid got into the dry spots.
I got it all together and drove it. The pedal is real loose but brakes are there. I expect I didn't get the rears set perfect I did 10 pushes of the pedal to the floor to bleed each wheel. The one that is giving me grief is rubbing on a high spot and squealing too. I think the pads are just too fat.

I'm a bit bummed. I am going to clean up and eat and hopefully someone will post a fix or I'll think of something. Seems a waste to have done all this work rebuilding the front end and end up with worse brakes than I had.
Here are a couple pics of it before I put the wheel back on. Let me know if you see something off or if I need to post more pics.

18036 18037

[geezer101]

You would've struggled to get the shims in if the pads are that tight anyway. There shouldn't be any high spots or irregularities with the rotors so there is an issue. It looks like you have been thorough with your prep and assembly, it might be down to how thick the pads are out of the box. If you are still getting a spongy pedal you either still have air in the system or the master is bypassing. Brakes can be problematic - you can do them 10 times without issues and then something will throw a spanner in the works.

[85Ram50]

After a nights sleep the rubbing on a high spot has to be an out of flat rotor. If the rubbing were the pads being off it would have to rub all the way around. And the other side with the same parts came together properly and rotated freely.

Let me know if anyone has a way to demonstrate a rotor is off as that makes this a supplier issue.

[85Ram50]

I jacked it up and the wheel spun more easily than it had when I first drove it. I also noticed that it was rubbing all the way but with one spot being tighter. I removed the wheel and knocked on the caliper and it got tighter! to the point I could not turn it by hand. I pushed the brake pedal while it was running and it went low then pumped up on the next push like it was normal again. I'm not sure what that means I was hoping to loosen the pads when it relaxed. It didn't so I put the wheel on with no nuts just to move it and it moved but did not loosen much.
Its not a bad rotor it must be something with the pads or the caliper.
I need ideas for solving this problem please.
Thanks.
EDIT-I took it apart. It seems that the rubbing is the caliper rubbing on the outer edge of the rotor and the Anti Rattle Springs beinding out of shape and also rubbing on the rotor. I have a pic from the FSM that shows the anti rattle springs part #6.
Nearest I can deduce is that the CarId kit anti rattle springs are made of the wrong kind of metal and it is too hard to bend and spring back to where it should they are both out of shape and don't want to stay in. I do not think they are made of spring steel or whatever the correct steel alloy they should be.
When I manage to get the caliper in they hold it too close to the rotor and bend out of shape instead of relaxing to allow parts 10 & 11 to slip under them. I will contact them and see who else might have the parts in town. Recycle was picked up yesterday so I don't have the old ones.
18111
EDIT2- After posting I realized I did the pads after recycle day so the discarded parts were still in there. I got the old anti rattle springs and get the same result though they do feel better. Something is causing the caliper to sit too deeply in its cradle. Maybe I am not doing things right? I am placing parts 10 & 11 between the caliper and the anti rattle spring. Should the spring be between them?

[pennyman1]

Something doesn't look right - are the stainless shims aligned right on the caliper? there is a tab that the notch on the shim goes into to align the shim. Did you put a thin layer of brake grease on the plate (both sides)? Those parts are either wrong or not made right, but that doesn't explain the old parts dragging.

[85Ram50]

The only thing old is the thick shim. Everything else is new. I didn't grease them and never noticed a notch to align them with. The other side just went together without really thinking about it. This side is a real problem. The thin shims wouldn't sit still and they keep popping out when I put the thick shim in from the side or full on. It just doesn't want to go in. The other side practically fell into place as soon as I put it together. I have no idea why I am having trouble here. The caliper body is sitting in deeper than it should.

[85Ram50]

So now the embarrassing details :shrug:
As I lay in bed and turned my mind to this it hit me that the caliper should ride on those rattle springs not sit under it! doh! That is why the other side seemed to fall together I wasn't trying to think too hard and just let it fit the way it went in on its own. I am going to take off the other wheel later when it warms up and make sure I got it right as I recall the anti rattle spring looked bent in one spot on that side.
It took me all of 5 minutes this morning to put the pass side on and its spins properly. That was nice since this morning I woke to the first hard frost of the year. It started after only 3 cranks! and is idling no problem. It usually doesn't like to start cold.
.
18114 18115

[geezer101]

A little embarrassing but not as bad as sending everything back and accusing the supplier of selling junk. A solution that only cost you time. :)

[85Ram50]

Yea It drove nice over the dirt road around the corner too.
I ended up doing all this after I accidentally damaged that fender. I probably would not have done any of this yet or maybe ever if I hadn't done that.
I painted the bumper and the grill. I might go over the chrome spots with black too but for now its all together. I've ordered the windshield gasket and sent Mike Warme a message via email and eBay Again for the window scrapers. When it defrosted the only liquid on the windows was on the inside! The floor is soaked. It is as much the window scrapes as it is the windshield.
Before 18120 After 18118 Hood 18119

[85Ram50]

Got the alignment, good thing too it was way off and might be the reason for the pull right when I had a heavy load and braked hard. The steering wheel is straight which is odd because I pulled it yesterday and moved it and when driving to the shop this morning it turned out to be off in the other direction it was previous to "fixing" it yesterday?! :) Like I said I have dumb luck.
alignment printout.jpg (http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19176&d=1500749895)
Edit- I forgot to mention that the mechanic said the nut on the tie rod end was loose! One of the Moog Tie rod ends came sans Cotter pin or hole and no grease zerk. That is the one that had come loose. I just bought a new drill index and box of cotter pins to take care of this later today or tomorrow. Oh yea it drives a lot better now.