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originalowner
06-27-2013, 08:01 AM
Upon my last thread concerning the jet valve elimination kit and how and if it could benefit me, I read a couple of posts from learned, well versed users that convinced me that the stock mechanical pump was delivering too much gas at low engine speeds with the Weber conversion- causing a myriad of small but nagging driveability issues including dieseling/run on after shut off and low speed engine surging in the lower gears. It all makes sense, so you sold me on the long overdue upgrade to an external electric pump.

To make a long story short, I went to the local CarQuest parts store to get a Carter #108-P4070 because that seemed to be the consensus choice, even though I saw a few users who had success with other brands of pumps including Holley and AC-Delco.

(CarQuest is a pretty big parts store chain in my area. Even though most of their marketing thrust is franchised dealers, independents, and other full service facilities, they do sell retail over the counter too.) Plus they have a location 2 blocks from my house. So that's where I went.

I explained to the nice chap behind the counter what I was doing to what kind of vehicle and he said he did not have the Carter P4070, but what he did have was a universal pump that he was sure would fit my needs- it was a universal pump manufactured by Facet. They are a U.S. based company that is joined at the hip with Purolator.

The one I held in my hand was a model # CPF41500. 4-7 PSI with 35 GPH. In other words the closest thing to to the P4070 but at about half of the flow. 35GPH seemed more than enough flow for my stock engine with no planned mods. I just want a smooth stocking running engine.

Howeva...the CarQuest website lists a couple of other Facet pump choices, one of which is a 1.5-4 PSI at 30GPH. The pumps can be seen in the upper right corner of this PDF.

http://www.myvirtualpaper.com/doc/carquest/cq-service-line-catalog/2012042301/355.html#354

So it occurs to me that the 4-7 PSI model would be best mounted near the stock filter under the bed. (Which is what I had planned to do.) But it seems to me the 1.5-4 PSI model could be mounted under hood in the left front fender well area. (In the neighbor hood of the coil or original "ECU". ;) I prefer to do it that way because as a multiple stroke victim that makes life easier for me.

So will the 1.5-4 PSI model provide adequate fuel delivery at my preferred under hood location? I don't see why it wouldn't. In fact, it looks tailor-made for the Weber which only requires 2-2.5 PSI of pressure.

Over pressurizing the Weber needle and seat is a valid concern, so wouldn't the 4-7 PSI model stand a chance of doing the same thing? Albeit less severe?

I want to fix these nagging problems for good, and I cannot overemphasize the fact that this motor will never be modded for more HP. Not.gonna.happen.

So what think ye? As always, many thanks for your input, and looking forward to your responses. You guys are great!

P.S.- the Facet pumps are 67.00 bucks, so they are right in the ballpark cost wise when compared to the Carter...

Fordubishi
06-27-2013, 05:28 PM
It still needs to be placed close to the tank. Electric fuel pumps "Push" fuel from the tank where as mecanical pumps "pull" fuel. you would have to read the instructions for the best place for it. I used one of those on an old Ranger 2.3L I put it on the frame rail below the tank just tied into the stock line.

originalowner
06-28-2013, 08:04 AM
It still needs to be placed close to the tank. Electric fuel pumps "Push" fuel from the tank where as mecanical pumps "pull" fuel. you would have to read the instructions for the best place for it. I used one of those on an old Ranger 2.3L I put it on the frame rail below the tank just tied into the stock line.

Thanks man.

OK, that makes sense. You sold me on the placement location near the tank right near where the filter is located. That nice open spot underhood had me in "wishful thinking mode. ;)

So which of the two models (1.5-4 PSI vs. 4-7 PSI) is a better choice then? Again, no future engine mods are planned.

The factory mechanical pump is 2.8-4.2 PSI/20-29 kPa discharge pressure. I am getting that straight from the 89 factory shop manual that I have.

I really don't want to "overpressure" the Weber anymore, that is the reason for this exercise to be honest and it seems to me that the 4-7 PSI model will possibly (probably?) do that.

I doubt the pump could be exchanged after it had been installed...so I'm looking for the best educated guess here. :shrug:

Fordubishi
06-28-2013, 09:30 AM
go with the 1.5-4 psi, 30gph will be fine. A stock mechanical fuel pump for a Ford 302 only puts out 28gph (at 7psi) and the Weber only needs around 3psi.

BradMph
06-28-2013, 11:58 AM
Carter P4070 for $59.32
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/part_numbers/353152-fuel-pump


Carter P4070 for $60.00
though the picture is showing a generic fuel pump model.
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/carter-p4070/?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adword&utm_content=pla&gclid=CP7K-by2h7gCFSjZQgoddhoAHQ

Carter P4070 for $61.00
http://www.niftyinterior.com/157_page_912665.htm

pennyman1
06-30-2013, 06:02 PM
the problem with the facet is the flow rate - it is too low for maximum benefit of the Weber. Webers like high flow more than high pressure. That is also the reason that putting a pressure reg inline with a weber causes problems - it restricts flow and pressure.

mopar_ja
06-30-2013, 10:33 PM
Carter P4070 for $59.32
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/part_numbers/353152-fuel-pump


Carter P4070 for $60.00
though the picture is showing a generic fuel pump model.
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/carter-p4070/?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adword&utm_content=pla&gclid=CP7K-by2h7gCFSjZQgoddhoAHQ

Carter P4070 for $61.00
http://www.niftyinterior.com/157_page_912665.htm
I second this one, it is what I am running on my 2.6 no regulator no return line, you just adjust the carb jets accordingly "done". See "my fuel pump install under performance upgrades of forum, its stickied.

originalowner
07-01-2013, 09:43 AM
Carter P4070 for $59.32
http://www.autopartstomorrow.com/part_numbers/353152-fuel-pump


Carter P4070 for $60.00
though the picture is showing a generic fuel pump model.
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/carter-p4070/?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adword&utm_content=pla&gclid=CP7K-by2h7gCFSjZQgoddhoAHQ

Carter P4070 for $61.00
http://www.niftyinterior.com/157_page_912665.htm

That point is well taken.

But let me put it this way- I think sometimes I am speaking a different language because I have such a different perspective here.

I don't mean that in a bad way...hear me out...

This motor will never be modified in any way. Never. As I said before, it is not gonna happen. It is factory bone stock other than the Weber. (And the disconnection of all that vacuum shit that comes with the Weber install of course.)

The reason the truck has a Weber is because the original carb finally took a dump (at around 280,000 or thereabouts)...the only choice I had was to retrofit a Weber because of the limited success of rebuilding the stock feedback carb. At the time it was used as a daily driver for an outside sales job I had at the time.

In the interest of getting the thing on the road as quickly as possible (the job was 100% commission) I installed the Weber and left the factory mechanical pump in place. This was back in June of 2007. It ran fine but at times flooded on a warm restart (right when it started you could see the black smoke out the tailpipe), would run on after the key was turned off, and at times also surge badly at low engine speeds in the lower gears. I just want to rid myself of these nagging driveability problems. Out of those, the 'running on' is what I want to rid myself of for good. I just want to shut it off by turning the key off, and not have to pop the clutch whilst it is in gear. (I do it in 5th gear as opposed to 1st to lessen the shock on the drivetrain.)

For all the bashing the factory carbs get, the truck ran fine, practically "EFI smooth" with it on. Not to mention I could just turn the key off to shut the dang thing off. That is all I want.

Furthermore, if changing the factory mechanical fuel pump to a Carter electric pump is not going to "change" anything, I am like why bother?

I am a true car guy to the core, but I just want driveability that approaches the original set-up. No running on when shut off, no surging, etc.

I am on SS disability because of a couple of strokes I suffered in the fall of 2008.

If anything, the symptons I get are from getting too much gas, and not from getting not enough. I think this is born out with my MPG-

200 miles per tank?!? When I use to get close to 300 or more?!?!

See what I'm saying? My perspective is unique here, so I'm asking for advice that is geared to my own personal perspective.

I understand this is an enthusiast website, but my enthusiasm for Ol' Reliable lies in the fact that it has been a trusted friend for 345,000 miles and 25 years. I bought it new, and just want to keep it going with minimal fuss like I always have.

See what I'm saying?

mopar_ja
07-01-2013, 10:39 AM
"If anything, the symptoms I get are from getting too much gas, and not from getting not enough". That is what I thought as well, from all the research I did for my weber (any type of hesitation or stumble) is a lack of fuel. I know its unconventional thinking but weber's do not operate like a conventional carb. The primary circuit controls all the fuel from idle to about 2500 rpms then the high side takes over.

originalowner
07-01-2013, 12:23 PM
"If anything, the symptoms I get are from getting too much gas, and not from getting not enough". That is what I thought as well, from all the research I did for my weber (any type of hesitation or stumble) is a lack of fuel. I know its unconventional thinking but weber's do not operate like a conventional carb. The primary circuit controls all the fuel from idle to about 2500 rpms then the high side takes over.

Hmmmm...thinking out loud again...

The 70gph from the Carter pump is not too much gas for the Weber, and yet the 4-6 psi of pressure it yields is not too much even though the factory mechanical pump yields less...

I have now crossed the threshold into being totally confused...

mopar_ja
07-01-2013, 12:29 PM
Nope, been running mine with no return line or regulator does just fine. It took me about 3 wks to tune my weber changing jet after jet buy more jets change again. Trust me I was really confused, frustrated with it because I was thinking old school holley, Rochester, quadrajet style tuning and it is almost completely backwards to that when tuning a weber.

mopar_ja
07-02-2013, 04:50 PM
Here's link to my Weber tuning experience, what a bitch it was: http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/761-Need-unconventional-wisdom-for-weber-tuning

pennyman1
07-02-2013, 05:25 PM
I have been running a similar Holley electric fuel pump with 65 gph and 7 PSI on Geronimo for 15 years now, and a Mallory at 4 PSI 50 GPH before that. I started out with the Facet pump, but on a properly jetted Weber, he didn't run anywhere near as good as he does now with the Holley pump. I do understand your confusion, and we are not ignoring your questions, but just want you to benefit from our experiences with what works best. Either pump will get your truck to run, which one you choose is up to you.

BradMph
07-02-2013, 06:42 PM
345,000 miles, Your trusted friend maybe telling you it needs work in some way. My friend had 275k+ owned since 87 and finally asked for work to be done. Pumping fuel into the oil thru rings, burning rich, hard starts and good compression. You have an incredible amount of miles on your ole friend I am jealous to say. Though your compression may be good, it won't be long before your friend just says no!, forget it, I can't do it anymore.

Have faith in us here, we are only doing our best with what we have experienced with our own trucks. Some of us have owned our trucks for many many years and been thru many issues with them. Things will get figured out and usually do, between your own ideas about your own truck and help from others here with their trucks. You have some of the best and most knowledgeable Mitsubishi owners here and everyone is ready to help.

originalowner
07-03-2013, 08:44 AM
345,000 miles, Your trusted friend maybe telling you it needs work in some way. My friend had 275k+ owned since 87 and finally asked for work to be done. Pumping fuel into the oil thru rings, burning rich, hard starts and good compression. You have an incredible amount of miles on your ole friend I am jealous to say. Though your compression may be good, it won't be long before your friend just says no!, forget it, I can't do it anymore.

Have faith in us here, we are only doing our best with what we have experienced with our own trucks. Some of us have owned our trucks for many many years and been thru many issues with them. Things will get figured out and usually do, between your own ideas about your own truck and help from others here with their trucks. You have some of the best and most knowledgeable Mitsubishi owners here and everyone is ready to help.

I can appreciate what you're saying, I really do.

Yeah that's a lot of miles, but those are some of the most well maintained miles on the planet. I have changed the oil and filter faithfully every 3000 miles since day one- several times I did go more than several hundred miles over 3000...rarely more than a thousand. In all those years and miles- if you divide 345K by 3k, you get 115 oil changes-my records show I've done 99.

As a dealer service adviser for many different makes over the years, I have seen my share of high-mileage cars. The common thread for all of them was a fastidious maintenance history. The service records for this truck fill a one inch binder.

I get what you're saying about the motor being worn- for most vehicles. This truck is not in the category of "most vehicles" though.

In reading all these responses, I am starting to conclude that this thing just needs to be handed over to a Weber carb specialist for some fine tuning. The factory mechanical pump is not providing too much pressure or not enough volume...the Weber just needs some tweaking. It remains in the "out of the box" state of tune.

A couple of hours of labor by somebody who really knows these carbs will work wonders for it, I have come to believe...

P.S. You guys are an extremely helpful bunch, and I truly appreciate all of your inputs.

mopar_ja
07-11-2013, 10:19 PM
Let us know what your tuning is for info purposes. For other folks that might run into same scenario, and remember to error on the side caution better to be a little rich than too lean and burn a valve.

originalowner
07-12-2013, 06:37 AM
Let us know what your tuning is for info purposes. For other folks that might run into same scenario, and remember to error on the side caution better to be a little rich than too lean and burn a valve.

I was going to take it in to a local independent shop but I went to a plan 'B' instead. I ordered a jet assortment from Ebay. 60.00 bucks and be here Mon. or Tues.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WEBER-Redline-32-36-DGV-DGEV-DGAV-Carburetor-Carb-Jetting-Jet-Pack-Kit-NEW-/270967601685?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f16ed7a15&vxp=mtr

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it has a horribly lean condition that is due to the 'out of the box' lean jetting of the Weber. You have to figure those carbs are lean jetted to the max for over the counter sales due to EPA regs. The instructions will lead you to believe the carbs don't need to be tuned...HARDY HAR HAR... In fact that's what the instructions say- they are calibrated at the factory and there is no need to mess will the calibration. WHAT A LAUGH.

I also read an article by Jim Inglese explaining how the thing works and the basics of tuning them. What a piece of cake. As easy as falling off a log backwards. LOL

A dozen different idle jet sizes and I just happen to get the magic formula of correct jet sizes in mine.Yeah right...;)

The idle circuit is doing the work during 80% of routine driving, and that is where the symptoms occur, during low speed operation...anything over 2000-2500 RPMS and the mains take over. This link is awesome. Keep hitting 'next' all the way to the end and you will see some of the coolest Weber set ups he has done for Cobra V-8s and so on. WOW.

http://jiminglese.com/weber5_005.htm

By this time next week it will be purring like a kitten...

originalowner
07-12-2013, 06:58 AM
In looking back at how it is now in the out of the box lean condition...it should not take 19 full turns out of the idle mixture screw before it begins to stumble...ROFL...:lmao:

In reading that article by Jim it should only take one full turn out or else it needs to be richenend up a tad...:shock:

mopar_ja
07-12-2013, 11:27 AM
That's a good article, and there were only two areas of my weber I did not screw with the emulsion tubes and accelerator pump, those are both as they were from factory. Yeah I could probably get a finer tune if I changed those, but I got down good enough with just changing jets.

originalowner
07-12-2013, 04:01 PM
That's a good article, and there were only two areas of my weber I did not screw with the emulsion tubes and accelerator pump, those are both as they were from factory. Yeah I could probably get a finer tune if I changed those, but I got down good enough with just changing jets.

I don't even think I'll have to mess with main jets- just feddle with the idle jets.

The leanest idle jet listed on Weber Direct you can buy for a DGEV is a 40. The one I had out of the box for the primary was/is 47.5 :wtf:

The kit comes with a 65, a 70 and a 75. LOL

I didn't drive much because of medical reasons for the past several years, but I'm like holy shit this thing is going to run better than it has in the last several years! :cheers:

mopar_ja
07-12-2013, 06:58 PM
(I don't even think I'll have to mess with main jets- just feddle with the idle jets.) you hope but I would bet if the idle jets were leaned out so are probably the mains and air correctors as well, since the whole carb was set up to run lean.

originalowner
07-13-2013, 03:38 AM
(I don't even think I'll have to mess with main jets- just feddle with the idle jets.) you hope but I would bet if the idle jets were leaned out so are probably the mains and air correctors as well, since the whole carb was set up to run lean.

I'm sure you are correct on that- but I'm also thinking if Inglese is correct and the idles do 80% of the lifting at low speed...wishful thinking for sure but I'm also pretty sure that new idle jets will correct 80% of the symptoms. They are almost exclusively low engine speed.

Looking forward to messing with it.

You're initial post regarding jetting was my light bulb moment. It just dawned on me how lean that truck was running when I pulled a jet out and it was a 47.5. PATHETIC. :rolleyes:

Now that I think of it, I think it runs a tad warmer than it should because it's overly lean.

Sure it won't hurt a bit to bump up the richness a setting or two.

Driving me nuts waiting for the kit to show up.

mopar_ja
07-13-2013, 01:53 PM
Always waiting on parts is the hard part, when they do Christmas in July!!!

originalowner
07-15-2013, 11:03 AM
Always waiting on parts is the hard part, when they do Christmas in July!!!

This story is moving into tragedy at a rapid pace.

After several phone calls to Jim Inglese, Weber Direct, Pierce Manifolds in California, I understand I do not have a Weber carb. I do, but I don't. It was Mike at Pierce Manifolds that cleared this up for me. This is worthwhile knowledge for everyone.

The carburetor that I bought from WeberDirect back in 2007 is not a Weber. Nowhere is the Weber name or logo on the carb anywhere. The key was in the model # of the carb- on the invoice and the carb itself is the model 34 DGEC. That is stamped on the baseplate casting also. Thing is WEBER NEVER MADE THAT MODEL CARB. In my mind, it is a carb that was licensed for manufacture by Weber or whatever...BUT IT IS NOT A Weber. It was made in Argentina or SlingShit Asia or somewhere...who the fuck knows?

This explains a hell of a lot- mainly why the hell the primary jet does not separate from the jet holder. I mangled one pretty good trying to get the fucking thing apart. It ain't fucking happening, I suspect they are one piece, and do not come apart. FUCK ME IN THE ASS WITH A HOT POKER. Fuuuuuck...

I need to source a K-611 conversion kit and carb and end this saga that started in June 2007.

Shit...FUCK...dammit...

originalowner
07-15-2013, 01:01 PM
Aight...here's the dilly-

I ordered an entire new carb from Pierce Manifold in California- a kit #K610 which should yield me a 34 DCEV. That is the genuine Weber version of the 34 DCES that I bought in June 2007.

I may get lucky and the jet holders will screw right into the old carb. I can hope... If not, I'll just have to swap out the carb, which shouldn't be that bad. *crosses fingers* (I only mention that because the LR mounting nut is a PURE-T mother fucker to remove.) I have fought that thing several times and had to give up. If the carb has to be swapped out, I'm going to heat that fucker with a small propane torch that I have and hope that does the trick. Other than that one nut, it's a piece of cake.

I'll keep you all posted. LOL

Dam I hope those jet holders just swap out...The guy at Pierce could give me no clue as to if they would. He had no idea. One bright spot- he sold me the carb for 213.00 plus shipping for all the trouble I've been through seeing that the DCEC carb was misrepresented to me as a genuine Weber back in 2007...

originalowner
07-15-2013, 01:07 PM
Correction- the "phony Weber" is a 34DGEC- the genuine Weber is a 34DCEV...

originalowner
07-15-2013, 01:15 PM
And the conversion kit is a K610 BTW...not a K611...

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=K610

originalowner
07-15-2013, 03:19 PM
Ok, I'm just waiting for UPS now.

Tell you what though, that carb is never going to power another vehicle ever. LOL

I had to disassemble it to where I could access that booger of a mounting nut. I could see and hear parts falling out of the thing. :lmao:

That sumbitch is DONE.

I should get the new one Thurs and be running a couple hours after it arrives.

At least the dude gave me a serious break on the price.

Not only that, that jet kit I bought won't go to waste either...

mopar_ja
07-16-2013, 11:39 PM
Good info especially for those looking at doing the Weber conversion. Damned if you do, damned if don't, nice to hear you setting the shit right. so just take the old pos carb out fishing; you just might get your money back and save you on buying weights for couple years.

originalowner
07-17-2013, 09:40 PM
Good info especially for those looking at doing the Weber conversion. Damned if you do, damned if don't, nice to hear you setting the shit right. so just take the old pos carb out fishing; you just might get your money back and save you on buying weights for couple years.

Talking with that guy at Pierce really yielded good info. Weber Direct in Haupauge, NY sells a good number of these "counterfeit" Webers (I don't know what else to call it) and the guy empathized with my saga. Cheap junk knock-off of a Weber is what it really is. Can't wait to junk the motherfucker.

The silver lining is that I am finally going to get the genuine Weber with it's durability and tune ability that everybody raves about.

This thing is going to purr like a kitten with that real Weber on there.

Should be here tomorrow (Thurs 7/18).

The receipt that I have from 6/2007 lists a website of Europartsdirect.com and Weber Carbs Direct. THEY SELL JUNK.

The catalog # for what I bought was WK611-34. That's the part number.

The part # that Pierce Manifold sold me was a K610. (see my link above)

Oh well live and learn...this thing is going to run as good as it did before the factory carb took a dump.

Fordubishi
07-17-2013, 11:06 PM
Sounds like my Viair Compressor I ordered from Street beat custom's after it blew up 2 weeks ago I found out it was a clone. Phoned them and they said To bad it's over 30 days since you bought it (104 days since I got it), phoned the credit card and they said they could only reimburse me for 90 days but they now have a listing for the company for fraud. Got a hold of Viair and told them what happened, they replied they couldn't help me BUT they were going to go after Street beat for copy right infringment. Hope they go down in flames.............

originalowner
07-18-2013, 07:14 AM
Sounds like my Viair Compressor I ordered from Street beat custom's after it blew up 2 weeks ago I found out it was a clone. Phoned them and they said To bad it's over 30 days since you bought it (104 days since I got it), phoned the credit card and they said they could only reimburse me for 90 days but they now have a listing for the company for fraud. Got a hold of Viair and told them what happened, they replied they couldn't help me BUT they were going to go after Street beat for copy right infringment. Hope they go down in flames.............

I am not sure how Weber the carb making company plays into my saga, and if they (WeberDirect) can (legally) do what they do. Just to prevent what happened to me from happening to someone else, there perhaps should be a sticky about WeberDirect. JMO...

If anything, Weber Direct represents these carbs as "genuine Weber". They may have been made by a corporate entity that is some subsidiary or division of Weber that makes cheaper shit for world markets. That appears to be how they can get away with it. :shrug:

The hard work for the conversion was done back in 2007. In 2013 it will consist of 4 mounting bolts and fuel and throttle connections. Piece of cake.

I have tolerated a good deal of driveability problems because I just didn't know any better. The 'running on' was the worst and it kind of ticks me off that I had to put up with it. I have read a good deal of the content of this board, and I have to admit I have never come across similar issues to mine with a genuine Weber. In the back of my head, I would be thinking "why does my truck do this stuff? Why mine? Well now I know why. It was just me. Sure they will work, but there is basically no tuneabilty. You are pretty much stuck with the "out of the box" state of tune.

The retail price for the conversion kit from Pierce Manifolds was 283.95 Mike is the guy that I talked to, and he gave me the good hearted price of 213.00 plus S&H. I say promote the business here because I paid 279.95 in 2007 to WeberDirect for that non-tunable POS they sold me.

Waiting for the UPS man...

I cannot wait to open that box. According to Mike at Pierce, nowhere on the WeberDirect carb is the word "Weber" or the Weber trademark cast into it. That seems to be the foolproof way to determine if it is a genuine Weber.

originalowner
07-18-2013, 08:08 AM
Alright it's in my hands.

It looks to be slightly different, but I can tell it's a quality piece. The choke blades are coated with zinc phosphate or something that gives a "brassy" look. The ones on my 2007 counterfeit are already rusting.

The choke is on the opposite side, but the wire should be long enough. Along with that, I have better access to the mounting nuts. And of course, the primary jet holder is different.

My next post will be "post road test"...

Acuta73
07-18-2013, 04:03 PM
Weber is out of business...has been for a long while. They sell licensing to manufacturers to make the carbs. Weber Direct and Redline are, as far as I can tell, the largest distributors of "Weber" carbs. I actually talked to a guy yesterday that just bought one from Weber Direct for his MG Midget while his OEM carb goes back to England for a full refurbish. Likes it better than the OEM...

I have a Weber Direct 38/38 and it's a perfectly good piece, if I had a complaint it would be only in fit and finish. Had to smooth a couple pieces around the throttle linkage and choke plates when I got it. Also has the same problem with mounting, complete bugger to get to all the nuts...

The 34 Solex, as far as I understand it, was never made by Weber, just used a basic Weber design. I may not have that all right, but close enough I think.

originalowner
07-18-2013, 06:20 PM
It's on, and there is no doubt it is a different carb. Quite similar, but different none the less.

I have to go to Sears in the morning to get a flexible shaft screwdriver that is able to get to the idle mix screw. On the counterfeit, it was on the base on the driver side- easy as pie to get to. Now it's on the RR corner of the carb in an impossible place to get a standard screwdriver in there to adjust. IM-FUCK-ING-possible to get at. I just need a screwdriver with flexible shaft...

One thing I also learned is that the cheapo model that I had was only around 300CFM and the new one is about 385CFM.

There is no doubt it is a high quality piece- much better than the one I took off, that's for sure.

Now it just needs to be tweaked.

I may feddle with the throttle cable hook up to make myself happy in the near future, but not until it cools down a bit. It was 95 today and I despise working on anything when it is that hot.

I put in 150 primary/140 secondary for the main jetting. That may be a tad rich but still smaller than the ones I had at my disposal in the re-jet kit.

What I also need is a flexible socket extension to get at those pesky mounting nuts. Or figure out a better way to mount the thing with cap screws or something.

Regardless, it's on.

The old air cleaner off the counterfeit won't work either, so I need to call Pierce in the morning to get one of those too.

originalowner
07-18-2013, 06:52 PM
Weber is out of business...has been for a long while. They sell licensing to manufacturers to make the carbs. Weber Direct and Redline are, as far as I can tell, the largest distributors of "Weber" carbs. I actually talked to a guy yesterday that just bought one from Weber Direct for his MG Midget while his OEM carb goes back to England for a full refurbish. Likes it better than the OEM...

I have a Weber Direct 38/38 and it's a perfectly good piece, if I had a complaint it would be only in fit and finish. Had to smooth a couple pieces around the throttle linkage and choke plates when I got it. Also has the same problem with mounting, complete bugger to get to all the nuts...

The 34 Solex, as far as I understand it, was never made by Weber, just used a basic Weber design. I may not have that all right, but close enough I think.

I think as far as Weber Direct goes, the application weighs heavily in the equation. That WK611-34 that I had was a certifiable POS. DGEC?!?!?

For others, Weber Direct carbs would be fine. I will never recommend them though...

Acuta73
07-18-2013, 07:15 PM
Dunno how you are for budget on this, but this is a nice setup here:

http://www.amazon.com/K-N-85-8921-Universal-Plenum/dp/B00062YJTA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374199606&sr=8-1&keywords=K%26N+Weber+Plenum

And add either a basic cone filter or:

http://www.amazon.com/RC-5052AB-Universal-Cold-Intake-System/dp/B000TGNIWM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1374199873&sr=1-1&keywords=k%26n+universal+cold+air+intake

Not the cheapest route, but allowing the engine to breathe better is never a bad thing. Both in terms of MPG as well as Hp.

originalowner
07-18-2013, 11:11 PM
Dunno how you are for budget on this, but this is a nice setup here:

http://www.amazon.com/K-N-85-8921-Universal-Plenum/dp/B00062YJTA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374199606&sr=8-1&keywords=K%26N+Weber+Plenum

And add either a basic cone filter or:

http://www.amazon.com/RC-5052AB-Universal-Cold-Intake-System/dp/B000TGNIWM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1374199873&sr=1-1&keywords=k%26n+universal+cold+air+intake

Not the cheapest route, but allowing the engine to breathe better is never a bad thing. Both in terms of MPG as well as Hp.

Holy smokes. LOL. I just want a simple rectangular filter like I had.

Pierce seems reasonable in their prices, and I got the carb from them, so I think they would have a simple filter for that carb.

That truck barely goes 5k a year now, I don't need to spend that kind of money on it. I just need it to run reliably with no fuss.

I would rather get a 6 disc changer. Haha.:))

originalowner
07-18-2013, 11:40 PM
Dunno how you are for budget on this, but this is a nice setup here:

http://www.amazon.com/K-N-85-8921-Universal-Plenum/dp/B00062YJTA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374199606&sr=8-1&keywords=K%26N+Weber+Plenum

And add either a basic cone filter or:

http://www.amazon.com/RC-5052AB-Universal-Cold-Intake-System/dp/B000TGNIWM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1374199873&sr=1-1&keywords=k%26n+universal+cold+air+intake

Not the cheapest route, but allowing the engine to breathe better is never a bad thing. Both in terms of MPG as well as Hp.

Pierce has one for 35.00- That's more than I want to spend, but it looks to be a nice piece like the carb.

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/category_s/330.htm

The filter housing from Weber Direct is starting to discolor and corrode anyways.

Sorry guys, my experience with Weber Direct has just not been that good. They seem more interested from a company perspective to just ring up sales, at the expense of a quality product. A classic case of me not knowing any better, and with the volume they do, I was just naturally steered towards them when I started my on-line search for a Weber. Oh well.

I think I may drive over the old carb tomorrow when I am done adjusting everything. I am going to crush the shit out of that bastard. ROFL :lmao:

Acuta73
07-19-2013, 10:00 AM
Holy smokes. LOL. I just want a simple rectangular filter like I had.

Pierce seems reasonable in their prices, and I got the carb from them, so I think they would have a simple filter for that carb.

That truck barely goes 5k a year now, I don't need to spend that kind of money on it. I just need it to run reliably with no fuss.

I would rather get a 6 disc changer. Haha.:))


Hehe, fair enough. As I said, had no idea on yer budget and it IS a nice setup for a Weber.

originalowner
07-19-2013, 12:18 PM
Well Sears did not have what I needed...but a former co-worker/Toyota tech hooked me up like a wrecker truck.:grin:

He loaned me his Skewdriver and that is truly the tool I must have. Turning the handle turns the screwdriver bit. Here is what it is.

http://www.spectools.com/spec.htm

There is no way in hell you can turn that idle mixture screw on a DGEV w/o that tool. Ain't gonna happen. So I am going to order one.

Kind of glad Sears did not have a spring steel/flexible shaft screwdriver, or I would have never stopped at my old workplace to borrow a tool, and therefore not found out about this genius of a tool.

Anywho, I made some adjustments to get it driveable. In a word, the truck now feels "energized"...there is a marked difference from the DGEC...the DGEV is just a 10X better carb overall. It's obvious now that that cheaper version was just inferior in many ways. Thing is, it was not "cheap"...it was 280.00 back in 2007.

I have learned a lot about Weber carbs in the last week- the quality and prices are all over the map. Whichever carb maker was licensed to produce mine did a bang up job. It really is a quality carb- hats off to Pierce Manifolds for delivering fine quality at a competitive price. I have not called them for an air cleaner yet, but I am going to ask them who makes their Weber carbs for them. Redline maybe?

pennyman1
07-19-2013, 05:47 PM
The current Webers are now made in spain off of the original designs - if yours is marked as such they are the good ones. Empi, of 70s VDub fame, now makes a Weber copy, with similar quality to what you described for the weberdirect carb. The original Weber DCEC 34/34 carb was supposed to be an emissions compliant version of the Weber 32/36 DGV series, but was never quite as good. The Solex 34 /34 carb was a work alike carb built by Solex, a weber competitor, and licensed their designs to Mikuni of that and their sidedraft carbs - that line was called Mikuni - Solex. Solex has been gone longer than the Italian Webercompany, but the Spanish Webers are supposed to be the best of the weber type carbs made today.

originalowner
07-20-2013, 05:47 AM
The current Webers are now made in spain off of the original designs - if yours is marked as such they are the good ones. Empi, of 70s VDub fame, now makes a Weber copy, with similar quality to what you described for the weberdirect carb. The original Weber DCEC 34/34 carb was supposed to be an emissions compliant version of the Weber 32/36 DGV series, but was never quite as good. The Solex 34 /34 carb was a work alike carb built by Solex, a weber competitor, and licensed their designs to Mikuni of that and their sidedraft carbs - that line was called Mikuni - Solex. Solex has been gone longer than the Italian Webercompany, but the Spanish Webers are supposed to be the best of the weber type carbs made today.

That's the one I have now...

One thing I am messing with now is trying to get an idle jet into a jet holder. It's nearly impossible to do when they are brand new. If I can't get this damn thing in the holder, the truck won't run... unless I can get it in there or I can find a place that sell these idle jets already installed in the jet holder.

My frustration level is boiling over.

BradMph
07-20-2013, 09:16 AM
Avoid JT Outfitters for phony weber knock offs. This company has a series of copycat autoparts and have changed names a few times. They are also known as JoeTLC. Those phony Weber carbs are actually pretty strange that they place a sticker on the carb saying it is a weber, but in actuality only that one part they stick the sticker on is branded as Weber, lol. Nice little scheme they got going to sell POS carbs. I got lucky and the one I purchased some years back I sold on Craigslist. I explained truthfully what the carb was and I couldn't get the truck to idle worth a damn and was not on my vehicle for more than a day. The guy understood and bought it anyway and put it on a Samurai.
My conscience tells me what and what not to do and I definitely did not want this carb to return through my living room window so I gave him the low down on the thing which he knew pretty much on site of viewing the carb. Honesty was the best policy this time, lol.
The weber I own now was made in Spain and what a piece of quality compared to the JT Outfitters POS. All I did was install the new carb and it ran perfectly.

originalowner
07-20-2013, 12:21 PM
Alright it's back running again...LOL

I think the problem I had was trying to put a primary jet into a secondary jet holder. I tried a secondary jet and it slid right in. I think they are slightly different in size.

Like I said, the best word to describe how the truck liked the Spanish made Weber is it became "energized". Goofing around on a road test and it actually chirped the RR tire. Ha ha. :))

The air cleaner is coming from Pacific should be here first part of the week.

The next obstacle is to overcome the throttle cable and throttle shaft interference issue. The threaded rod that houses the cable is about an inch too long and has to be cut off about an inch so they wont interfere with each other.

The surging is gone, even with only rudimentary adjustments done so far.

You only go through this shit for someone or something you love- that's the god's honest truth...

From what I have learned this week is to make sure the carb has the Weber name and trademark cast into it and it should also say "made in Spain" somewhere on it also. If it doesn't have that- send it back before you even attempt to put it on. It is more than likely junk.

pennyman1
07-20-2013, 07:02 PM
Or if its used it is marked made in Italy - then you got the Holy Grail. Bet you didn't know that the Edelbrock carbs are also Webers, and that the new Carter carbs are Webers too.

originalowner
07-30-2013, 02:32 PM
Or if its used it is marked made in Italy - then you got the Holy Grail. Bet you didn't know that the Edelbrock carbs are also Webers, and that the new Carter carbs are Webers too.

Brother I wish I knew now what I didn't know back in 2007 when I made the initial Weber conversion.

The DGEC model that Weber Direct sold me is a piece of junk. (To be honest I don't even know if they even sell it any more. I suspect it was promoted at the time by Weber Direct due to them or some other global corp or entity that needed to rid themselves of over stocking.) It cannot be tuned properly and with a size of 300CFM the case can be made that it is too small for a 2.6 litre engine.

That combined with my disability from 2 strokes (I have a one-track mind now unfortunately) has culminated in a nearly a two week delay in completing what should have been done back in 2007. I am waiting for the primary jets that I re-ordered last Wed 6/24. Plus I will end up with an extra DGEV because I erroneously bought another one from Ebay thinking I needed it. The good news is that I got a brand new one at a great price (less than what I paid for the one I got from Pierce Manifolds) and I can easily recover that money back if I choose to resell it. But...big but...I like the idea of having an extra one for parts. But...bigger but...they are known for not having parts that wear. But being on disability, I prolly don't drive enough for that to really be a concern.

Most of the delay was caused because Pierce sent me the wrong idle jets when I when I talked to them on Mon. 7/22. They sent secondary idle jets when I needed primary idle jets. I had ordered those jets 2nd day air because I needed them fairly quickly to get the truck running. 2nd day air for parts that fit in the palm of your hand and a standard business envelope was around 30 bucks from Cali. I never asked at the time of the order how they were sending the correct jets- turns out they sent them standard ground shipping from Cali to NC. That takes a week. So the damn things will not be in my hand until 8/1. *sigh*

All of this has been a "learn as you go" experience for me. Once I learned that the DGEC was junk, that's what started this whole ball rolling. So it will be two more days at the earliest before I can give a road test report.

The removal of the top of the carb was very telling. The secondary barrel is quite "carboned up"- the secondary was obviously too rich. But when the primary idle jets do 80% of the lifting @ 2500 RPM and lower as opposed to the mains and the idle jets and jet holders are made into one part and the jet size is not changeable...there are not even different sizes to do the "trial and error" thing...you get the picture...no wonder the truck had so many drivability issues that cannot be corrected w/o putting a 'proper Weber' on the motor.

You guys have been great. I look forward to writing a post about my road test and first drive with a real Weber on the motor.

'Ol Reliable has a tremendous will to live and survive. It is almost mythical...;)

originalowner
07-30-2013, 02:41 PM
Or if its used it is marked made in Italy - then you got the Holy Grail. Bet you didn't know that the Edelbrock carbs are also Webers, and that the new Carter carbs are Webers too.

I am going to start calling the DGEC the "Mikuni/Weber". Haha. The DGEC is just as big a piece of junkyard scrap as the original Mikuni was. I have a sneaky suspicion that Mikuni even makes them...:shakehead:

BradMph
07-30-2013, 02:50 PM
Does Weber carb make the Weber BBQ grill too? :lmao:

originalowner
07-30-2013, 03:24 PM
Does Weber carb make the Weber BBQ grill too? :lmao:

I laugh because I can't cry anymore. :)

Well after this ordeal, not only will I have a proper Weber on the motor, I will also have a Skewdriver in my tool box!!! Nanny nanny boo boo! :))

Anybody that doesn't have one should get one. 44.44 including shipping from Amazon. I have never seen a cooler, more functional tool in my entire life.

I got the Skewdriver Pro with all the bits. This thing is the shit...

http://www.amazon.com/Skew-Products-SPK-4040-Straight-Multi-Bit/dp/B000LQB6DI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1375222657&sr=8-3&keywords=Skewdriver+Pro

You really do need one to do adjustments on a DGEV after it is installed.

BradMph
07-30-2013, 07:48 PM
Stick your head in Doo Doo, "Daniel Tosh.0 2011" Comedy central. :clap:

Really need a wrench that is so tweaked out just to fit them 4 base carb bolts for these webers. Darn things are a pain.

originalowner
07-31-2013, 12:17 AM
Stick your head in Doo Doo, "Daniel Tosh.0 2011" Comedy central. :clap:

Really need a wrench that is so tweaked out just to fit them 4 base carb bolts for these webers. Darn things are a pain.

Oh yeah almost forgot I also ended up getting a set of mm stubby combination wrenches from Autozone that that aided installation greatly. They made the job much easier, that's for sure.:thumbup:

Can't believe I did it w/o one the first go-round.

Found that out too...

originalowner
08-07-2013, 10:38 AM
I have had computer modem issues, just got that fixed so here's the dilly.

The "counterfeit" Weber I had installed on the motor in 2007 is history. It was a DGEC and if I'm not mistaken, it is what is what I saw named in another thread as a "Weber/Solex". Bottom line- the DGEC that I got from WeberDirect in 2007 is a POS with limited tunability. The idle jets and idle jet holders are made into one piece. WTF?!?!?! The DGEC is 300CFM when a genuine DFEV is 385CFM. The truck will run with one of those pieces of junk on the motor, but they are not the best choice. A DGEC is genuine gutter trash which is made of metal. :lmao:

The truck runs a million times better with the DFEV intalled. The surging at low engine speeds "off idle" is gone. The best way to describe how the truck feels now is "energized". Like how a human feels after a good exercise workout.

I am going to obtain every idle jet size both primary and secondary for that carb and start doing the "trial and error" thing to secure the best drivability. It's close, but I think can fiddle with it some more to achieve even better. That will happen after the weather cools down a bit. I just don't like working under hood on a hot motor on 90+ degree days. Not my cup of tea.

I am still struggling with "run on" and am starting to believe these 2.6s are just prone to do it and it is typical of them.:shrug:

If I adjust the idle to about 9-1000RPMs with the A/C off, when the compressor kicks on it will lower the idle to about 800RPMs. That's high enough for a relatively smooth idle, but it will run on when I turn the key off. If I set the idle to about 800RPMs with the A/C off, when the compressor kicks in it will lower the idle to 5-600 RPMs. That is low enough to minimize the run on, but it's too low to get a smooth idle.

I may end up having to install an "idle up" solenoid for the A/C. Don't want to go there though.

*scratches head*

I did learn these things though-

1)The DGEC is a piece of junk. To do this swap properly, you need to obtain a "genuine Weber" for a MMaxD50 which is a DGEV 32/36 progressive.

2)DGV= manual choke or "cable operated" choke
DGEV= electric choke
DGAV= 'automatic' or coolant operated choke- the DGEVs being more popular because of a simpler install. Just use the same 12v wire that the factory carb used, and plug off the coolant line that went to the Mikuni.

3) Any of the above will work fine, just make sure the Weber trademark is cast into the carb body somewhere. Along with that, it should say 'made in Spain" or "product of Spain" on it too. That's where the "good Webers" are made now as Pennyman pointed out.

I think I am going to end up with another DGEV. I bought one off Ebay brand new at a good price because it was before I talked to Pierce Manifolds in Cali. It was all part of my 2 week learning curve on this. I can keep it for parts or resell it for what I paid for it.;)

Right now it has a 75 pr idle and 70 sec idle. For a stock 2.6 motor that seems to be in the ballpark.

Still will prolly upgrade from the original mechanical pump to the Carter P4070, but not right now. Not until cooler weather hits.

I'm just glad it's back running.

mopar_ja
08-07-2013, 05:26 PM
Where is your timing set, stock by the book is about 5 to 7 deg. if not mistaken try bumping it up to about 10 deg. That is where I m running mine at.

originalowner
08-08-2013, 08:33 AM
Where is your timing set, stock by the book is about 5 to 7 deg. if not mistaken try bumping it up to about 10 deg. That is where I m running mine at.

I have tried a couple different settings there too, in fact I've even tried retarding the timing several degrees to ATDC. That hasn't eliminated the run-on (dieseling) when I shut it off either.

I just can't believe no one else has had this same problem with a 2.6 with a genuine Weber. *flummoxed*

The way I understand it (?), the original factory carb had mechanisms inherent in the carb that shut off fuel flow when you turned the key off. Of course, that feature went the way of the original carb.

Years ago when I was doing research on Webers and looking at the choices available, I seem to remember a model of a Weber DGV series that had positive fuel shut off. Am I hallucinating, or does anyone remember that? Or is my wishful thinking getting the better of me?

Do I still have to try different size idle jets?

This is driving me nuts. The problem started with the 2007 'counterfeit' Weber installation, and has not improved.

What am I missing?

All of the surging at low engine speeds is gone, so that alone made the "Spanish Weber" worth it.:thumbup:

Bottom line the truck runs light years better, but still has this nagging "run-on" issue, and it's quite frustrating, to be quite honest.

P.S.- if I shut the engine off cold, it doesn't do it, or it is minimal. Once the motor is up to operating temp, forget it. You have to "pop the clutch" with your foot on the brake to shut the motor off completely.

:shrug:

Fordubishi
08-08-2013, 09:55 AM
If your still running the stock pump you're probably over filling the fuel bowl as the stock pump produces to much pressure and is by-passing the needle and seat.This will cause the gas to leak into the intake and cause the engine to get hot fuel that with keep the truck running till its gone.

originalowner
08-08-2013, 12:05 PM
If your still running the stock pump you're probably over filling the fuel bowl as the stock pump produces to much pressure and is by-passing the needle and seat.This will cause the gas to leak into the intake and cause the engine to get hot fuel that with keep the truck running till its gone.

That makes a ton of sense.

Thinking out loud here...the factory pump puts out 2.8-4.2 psi (factory shop manual) and the Weber only requires 3 psi max.

So is that 1.2 additional psi causing it? Mainly because of the close proximity of the pump to the carb?

A Carter P4070 puts out 3-6 psi of fuel pressure and yet that is not too much pressure?

You can see why I have been so confused on this.

The factory specs on the mechanical pump indicate to me that it's not too much pressure, at least on paper, unless that Weber carb just hates that extra 1.2 psi.

Somebody un-confuse me. LOL

I just don't get how the factory mechanical pump can have the same pressure (or less) than the Carter- yet it is causing this run-on problem I have.

I'm really not getting this...

Acuta73
08-08-2013, 12:55 PM
Usually with a Carter you will run a pressure regulator, though there are people here that aren't and I don't get how they don't have that same issue.

My general assumption is that the factory pump may just be worn enough to lower the output pressure to something the Weber is fine with.

I know everything I've read about Weber carbs as they relate to line pressure is: They are very very picky and even a tiny bit too much pressure will cause issues.

I have a 38/38 and it was suggested perhaps I get a fuel cutoff solenoid off of EBay as mine likes to do the same. I believe it replaces the main jet.

originalowner
08-08-2013, 01:50 PM
Usually with a Carter you will run a pressure regulator, though there are people here that aren't and I don't get how they don't have that same issue.

My general assumption is that the factory pump may just be worn enough to lower the output pressure to something the Weber is fine with.

I know everything I've read about Weber carbs as they relate to line pressure is: They are very very picky and even a tiny bit too much pressure will cause issues.

I have a 38/38 and it was suggested perhaps I get a fuel cutoff solenoid off of EBay as mine likes to do the same. I believe it replaces the main jet.

I was wondering the same thing. That has been the "source of my confusion" so to speak.

If a Carter outputs 4-6 psi and the factory mechanical provides even less pressure and folks say they run a Carter w/o a regulator...wait...WUT?!?!?!?!?

Those factory components are incredibly durable if my pump has 345K on it and is still pumping it's ass off to beat the band is all I can say.

I have read many posts by somebody (Pennyman?) that say a pressure reg will burn up the mechanical pump in short order.

Why won't it do that with an electrical pump then?

I was a auto dealer service writer by trade- 20+ years- so I know just enough to get me in trouble. LOL;)

originalowner
08-09-2013, 02:00 PM
I have concluded what I have to do. Now that I have gathered all the practical info you guys have given me regarding this, and considering the symptoms, it's obvious what still needs to be done.

I was actually on the right track, as the thread title indicates. I was heading towards an electric pump install when I discovered I had a "counterfeit" Weber. Well that's fixed now. I have a Spanish made Weber sitting on the motor now. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. Practically gives me a woody. HAHAHA :lmao:

I am going to install a Carter P4070 in conjunction with a Holly 12-804 fuel pressure regulator so that I can limit the line pressure to 2 psi. This is what I learned as part of my learning curve from Jim Inglese, the Weber guru that builds and sells Weber carb setups for Cobra engines. (See link above.) This is the regulator he recommends. If it's good enough for him, it should be good enough for me.

All my symptoms point to Pennyman being right in that the factory mechanical pump is "over-pressurizing" the needle and seat and bleeding raw hot gas into the intake which in turn causes the run-on. In fact, if you watch the motor run from the driver seat with a clear view of the tach, you can practically tell the moment when the motor is being flooded with gas- not to mention the gas mileage is awful. I think I got around 10MPG on the last tank. I should be getting mid-teens in town. Never known as a thrifty motor, the 2.6 should still get around 15 MPG in town. Not earth shattering to be sure, but still better than 10. That really sucks on a vehicle that would be hard pressed to break 20 seconds in the quarter mile. Bwahahahaha. :shock:

I have a helping hand here local that can assist me or finish up my rough-in installs of those two components.

The fellow I'm talking about is a Master Ford Gas and diesel dealer tech who started his career on Mitsus who actually did the PDI or dealer prep on my truck for the sales lot when Ol' Reliable was brand new. Yes, the fellow that did the PDI on my truck still works on it when the repair is over my head or the job needs a lift to complete.

No, it's not done yet to my satisfaction, but I know exactly what parts I need...where to mount them...the dos and dont's...etc.

Many thanks to all who have very generous with their experiential knowledge and overall "gearheadedness" LOL

I especially want to thank MoparJA, Pennyman and Acuta73 because their posts were critical pieces of the puzzle that was being put together in my mind.

When I'm done with installing those two components (plus an oil pressure cut off switch) then I can proceed with fine tuning, jetting, etc. No point in doing that stuff until the fuel system has been sorted.

At that point, I will then have the best, smoothest running 2.6 on the planet.

*high fives all around*

originalowner
08-09-2013, 02:12 PM
I meant to thank Fordubishi also. He was the one who gave me insight to the "overpressurizing" the needle and seat.

BradMph
08-09-2013, 03:55 PM
I use that exact same setup your going to use and though I don't doubt the word of Jim Inglese, but our trucks are not Cobras. It's nice to hear you took in all the info from ideas here at this forum. That's what we are here for and will be here for. Like I said above, I use the exact setup your headed towards and have run it for a reasonable amount of time. My pump is in the cubby hole like Mopar has shown in his thread and I run my fuel pressure regulator on the left fender well in the engine bay as you will see in my repair thread.
Now, I noticed you said that your going to run your pressure at 2 psi and I have to add this will be low for the weber carb at least in my setup experience. I have opened mine to 3.5 psi and I have not done any type of rejetting at all and live at the 2000 ft. elev. By all means run your own ideas as you take in info here, I just want to add some from my experience. I have had nothing but a good running vehicle since the weber install and that is a common denominator here that we all can agree on.
Every DGV weber carb is the same, but every DGV carb is different. For example, some had to change jets and adjust their carbs. When I first got mine it was perfect right out of the box. Since then I have only made tiny adjustments and rebuilt it once.
Your setup is going in the right direction, but your going to have to do a tweak or two that will make it different from ours and that will be yours.
Returning your ideas to the forum is what makes this forum continuously growing for folks as yourself. Keep us informed, we like to hear good news and always like to help with the bad news. :)

Runon engines are running backwards by the way, lol.

mopar_ja
08-09-2013, 11:23 PM
Now which line did you plan on running the pressure reg. on, because I have thought about this and was thinking that the best way of doing this might be to put a check valve of about 4 to 6 psi on the return fuel line just after carb that way I maintain full gpm to the carb ensuring I have a full float bowl then the check valve would make sure I don't over pressurize the carb by releasing the excess down the return line.

pennyman1
08-10-2013, 07:09 AM
that will work well - are you using a fixed or adlustable one? Most people don't know what a check valve is or what it does - this is a perfect place to use one - it could even be used in place of a pressure reg if it flow well enough to regulate te pressure without losing too much flow.

originalowner
08-10-2013, 08:06 AM
I use that exact same setup your going to use and though I don't doubt the word of Jim Inglese, but our trucks are not Cobras. It's nice to hear you took in all the info from ideas here at this forum. That's what we are here for and will be here for. Like I said above, I use the exact setup your headed towards and have run it for a reasonable amount of time. My pump is in the cubby hole like Mopar has shown in his thread and I run my fuel pressure regulator on the left fender well in the engine bay as you will see in my repair thread.
Now, I noticed you said that your going to run your pressure at 2 psi and I have to add this will be low for the weber carb at least in my setup experience. I have opened mine to 3.5 psi and I have not done any type of rejetting at all and live at the 2000 ft. elev. By all means run your own ideas as you take in info here, I just want to add some from my experience. I have had nothing but a good running vehicle since the weber install and that is a common denominator here that we all can agree on.
Every DGV weber carb is the same, but every DGV carb is different. For example, some had to change jets and adjust their carbs. When I first got mine it was perfect right out of the box. Since then I have only made tiny adjustments and rebuilt it once.
Your setup is going in the right direction, but your going to have to do a tweak or two that will make it different from ours and that will be yours.
Returning your ideas to the forum is what makes this forum continuously growing for folks as yourself. Keep us informed, we like to hear good news and always like to help with the bad news. :)

Runon engines are running backwards by the way, lol.

I realize Jim Inglese and his Cobra intakes are are on a different planet than the one we are on. Different planet but same galaxy so to speak-so OTOH, his experience with Webers, be them DCOEs or IDFs is hard to beat. So in my mind, what he recommends carries a bit of weight.

The Holley 12-804 regulator yields 1-4 psi of line pressure. I am assuming (in other words hope) they are adjustable within that range. But I'll find out before I order one.

I don't see a need to run a return line to be honest. Haven't run one since 2007. Why do I need to reinstall one now?

The P4070 is mounted is the stock filter area. The 12-804 is mounted on the LF underhood area. The stock pump fuel lines are just blocked off and left in place. Uncomplicated is my friend.

I look at it this way. The 2007 retrofit is just half complete. LOL.

Those trucks are very forgiving. You give them fuel, spark and compression and they will run. Maybe not the best, but they'll run. IMO, that's why you'll have so many different configurations of components that will "work".

This should work, and rid me of the nagging drivebility issues that have been present since 2007.

Half of the issues were solved with the installation of the Spanish made Weber.

The other half will be solved by getting that fuel pressure down to where the Weber likes it.

pennyman1
08-11-2013, 03:44 PM
the bigger concern is to be sure the flow rate is high enough. Webers like flow more than pressure, so a higher flow pump with low pressure is better than a higher pressure pump with lower flow. Any pressure reg should not restrict the flow to drop the pressure - the holley reg with return line is one type of reg that will work that way.

mopar_ja
08-12-2013, 12:41 AM
that will work well - are you using a fixed or adlustable one? Most people don't know what a check valve is or what it does - this is a perfect place to use one - it could even be used in place of a pressure reg if it flow well enough to regulate te pressure without losing too much flow.
If it was me I would buy all fixed say like one each 4,5,6 psi check valve try them all out and see which one runs the best I also would not exceed the actual fuel return line size of 1/4 inch just to make sure. Adjustable just means more moving parts too "FAIL" just like IFS 4x4 vs Solid axle. more moving parts, more chances to break which = WEAKER and More Expensive.

originalowner
08-12-2013, 01:38 PM
I just got off the phone with StreetsideAuto. and the fellow I talked to said that the Holly regulator was adjustable within the 1-4 psi range. In other words, I can dial in exactly 3 psi of pressure.

I don't see why that would not work.

Install the Carter in the back, and install the pressure reg in the LF underhood area. Dial in 3 psi of pressure and voila!

Plenty of flow with a limit of 3 psi of pressure.

Why would this not work?

Not trying to be snarky, but honestly why wouldn't this work?

BradMph
08-12-2013, 07:34 PM
That is exactly correct. 1-4 psi is what they dial in at. I use a mini gauge on mine to check the psi. Though it doesn't have 4x4 moving parts in it, lol. Set it and forget it.
6370

originalowner
08-14-2013, 01:29 PM
That is exactly correct. 1-4 psi is what they dial in at. I use a mini gauge on mine to check the psi. Though it doesn't have 4x4 moving parts in it, lol. Set it and forget it.
6370

I ordered a P4070 Carter pump and a 12-804 Holly pressure regulator from StreetsideAuto.com- 104.00 bucks and some change.

There is a nut on the reg to adjust the pressure. I may add a mini-guage like Brad has to dial in the correct pressure.

The thing is going to run better than new by the time I'm done.

Rickdees
08-14-2013, 06:12 PM
A buddy just gave me a Holly regulator with a Tee for the gauge and plug where your gauge is. I like that and now know what to do with it.

originalowner
08-19-2013, 09:56 AM
Otay I recieved the Carter 4070 and Holley 12-804 from StreetsideAuto.com- I ordered them Wed. or so and they were on my doorstep Fri. Super prompt shipping for only 10.00 bucks. They are awesome.

I spoke with my wrench Dean P. and I told him I would do the "rough install" of the components and I would let him finish the install plumbing and wiring. He just said KEWL. You see he had bought a base model MM at the same time I bought my SPX, so he "gets it". He wishes he still had his. LOL.

Slowly but surely this project that I started back in 2007 is going to be completed properly.

I'm going to borrow Pennyman's(?) idea and fabricate a mounting location using the bed mounts near the filter for the pump and use the LF inner fender to mount the reg. Just plug off the mechanical pump fuel lines and leave it in place. The main incoming fuel line from the tank will go to the reg instead of the carb. Then just dial in the proper psi. Simple really.

This will be the blueprint for doing it properly. :thumbup:

The real underlying benefit of these trucks is that they are so dirt cheap to operate. Not to mention the fact that for all practical purposes, with just minimal maintenance, they'll last forever.

As a former Harley-Davidson owner, it has been said many times that even as an inanimate object, an HD has a "soul."

My Ol' Reliable does too, I think. ;]

originalowner
08-29-2013, 01:36 PM
I have all the parts and the "materials" needed for the electric fuel pump install- (I also picked up a mini fuel pressure gauge from StreetsideAuto). I just need to find somebody to install all of this stuff. I think I have found a tech who also used to work at the local Mitsu dealer. He also has a MM. My kind of guy. LOL. The parts dept. mgr knows how picky I am with who wrenches on Ol' Reliable and he gave the dude a ringing endorsement. He'll be at the beach this weekend, but as per our phone convo this morning, I'll call him when he gets back. Told him what I was doing and he said no problem, he could hook me up. I need to figure out a way to keep this throttle cable more secure. (Or I'll leave it up to him to figure out how to do it.) I could kick myself for throwing out that original carburetor. I read the thread where somebody had used the bellcrank off the original Mikuni for rigging the throttle cable on the Weber...but I chunked it at the time I did the first Weber install. Dang it.:shakehead:

originalowner
08-29-2013, 02:00 PM
One of these days the Weber install that I started back in 2007 will be complete. Takes me forever to get stuff done- but when it's done IT'S RIGHT. :thumbup:

I picked up a windshield molding and a RR tail light lens from Mitsu too. I have plans on replacing the windshield- it's sand pitted bad from age/mileage.

I could have gotten a used taillight lens from a boneyard, but at a little over 40 bucks for the assembly, I sez to myself "Self, just get a new one." :)) Plus I will bet you that most of them (90% easy) in the junkyards are from base model trucks that have black trim around them not chrome like the SPX has.

I think I may also start collecting those body side moldings that are unique to the SPX. That is another part that I'll bet will become impossible to find in the years to come. They only came on the SPX too.

originalowner
09-12-2013, 01:04 PM
OK guys- here's where we're at.

I don't have the electric pump installed yet due to my circumstances. To wit...

This has been a serious learning curve for me- but what I have learned will benefit all- even those who have done the retrofit to the Weber.

There are many combinations of components that will "work" in other words the truck will run when you are done, but the question is how well.

Much of my confusion was due to simple ignorance of certain aspects of the World of Weber, and marketing hype that comes with companies wanting you to purchase their product. For example, just about any site that sells the Carter P4070 electric pump will say in the description of the product that "no fuel pressure regulator needed". That's only partially true IMO. You may not need a reg for most applications, but if you are feeding fuel to a Weber carb, you definitely need to get the fuel pressure down below 3 psi. As I mentioned earlier, my factory shop manual says the factory mechanical pump will yield 2.4-4.2 psi output pressure. Acuta73 stated that he had read or heard that the Webers really don't like anything over 3 psi. They get fussy and tempermental over 3 psi. My own experience has shown this to be true. My experience has also shown me that my factory mechanical pump is still pumping it's ass of with 350K. That is the nature of a lot of original parts on my truck- they just last forever w/o wearing out. In doing my due diligence and research on this, I mentioned that I read on Jim Inglese's website that he only recommends the Holley 12-804 pressure reg. And while it's true that he does intakes and Webers for Cobras, that doesn't change the fact that Webers- whether it's an IDF, DGV, DCOE will all benefit from fuel pressure that is limited to 3 psi. Those carbs are all the same basic design- what holds true for one model will hold true for all.

All that said, I have to admit that I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that within the past week I realized how much of a dumb-ass I have been about that return line. I thought that I didn't need one. Since 2007 when I installed the counterfeit Weber, the return line back to tank was just plugged off. Well, this week I hooked it up properly to the "real" Weber. Even after the fuel bowl was full, the mechanical pump would still be pumping more fuel into the bowl- the result was unmetered fuel getting dumped into the motor. (My last tank of fuel yielded 13.0 MPG.) Yikes.

I've not calculated the MPGs since I hooked up the return line, but it should be better-in the mid to upper teens. (It runs better, put it that way.) Getting the electric pump and reg should get me to 20 or so. The window sticker says 23 city/28 highway, so 20 MPG city in the real world should be just about where it will calculate to.

I realize that a lot of what I have read here is simple "trial and error". I have tried to take what everyone has said, and balance that with my own life experience of how long and how many miles I have used the vehicle as my daily driver. I consider Jim Inglese and expert on Webers, so his opinion carries a lot of weight with me. The Holley 12-804 is the only pressure reg that he recommends. Common sense leads me to believe that Holley saw the sales potential of a pressure reg that is tailor made for the Mikuni to Weber retrofits (and any other Weber applications for that matter.)

ALL THAT SAID- it is becoming harder and harder to to find shops who will work with you on this. They don't want to install the parts that you've bought- they want to source parts from wholesalers whereas they get the markup- instead of StreetsideAuto.com getting the markup on parts. Hell I'll even throw them a few more bucks on the labor to make up for it. They don't see it that way though. *sigh*

Bottom line I have not found a person yet to do the install. I know what works, but I have to either find a person who does work on the side, or find a shop who will do the install to my instructions and wishes. I borrowed the idea from Pennyman (I think) of mounting the pump near the bed mount at the filter location. Because it made sense to me that electric pumps "push" fuel and mechanicals "pull" fuel. I went to Town and Country Hardware (they used to be an Ace Hardware until very recently) and got a piece of sheet steel to fab up a mount. A local steel fabricator cut it to the proper size for 10 bucks. Coffee fund money he called it. LOL ;) That is where the pump will be mounted in the back. For the pressure reg, I want to mount that on the LF inner fender- disconnect the line that goes to the mechanical and instead hook it to the reg. There is another "output" that I can hook the mini-guage for pressure readings. Dial in 3 psi *voila* and I should be golden.

So my question to my MM internet buddies is will this not work? Through my own laziness, and the fact that I have just been so slow in getting this done PROPERLY, is why I am so late to this party.

Of course, I can wait for the mechanical to wear a little more and the pressure would be in the middle of 2.4 and 4.2, right where the Weber would like it, but as you can see, I am beginning to think I'll be dead and buried before that happens.

Thoughts?

originalowner
09-12-2013, 06:09 PM
*more*

One thing I have to emphasize is that I have all those years and miles to make judgements and comparisons to the original Mikuni set up. For many years and hundreds of thousands of miles, that was my baseline. I've said this before, for all the rants I read about the original POS carb, when it's working right, it was awesome. "EFI smooth" is how I put it in another post. If I didn't have so many miles on the truck, it would prolly still be on the motor. It did not fail until 280,000.

These trucks are very honest though. When something is amiss, it will tell you with a symptom. Or try to tell you at least. Then it's up to you to piece it all together.

The parts manager recommended a Mitsu dealer tech that could possibly finish the install, but I've not gotten that far with him yet. He wanted to mount the electric pump under the hood. I never got that far with him but in hindsight I would say "well why are electric pumps almost universally mounted in the tank?" Because they need to be in the rear, that's why. But hey, I'm just a dumb-ass service writer. If I listened to him, I would have an even bigger cluster or even multiply my driveability issues.

A wise man once told me that he learned more about life in a conversation with a homeless bum than in many conversations he had with college professors with multiple PhDs. Is that why God gave us two ears, but only one mouth? You tell me.

I need to find somebody who will do this MY way. And I don't mean to sound snarky when I say that. Put another way, nobody knows this truck like I do. Even a veteran Mitsu tech has to respect that.

The dieseling or run on has been improved by 90%. The final 10% will be corrected when I finally get this system fully sorted. The return line fixed most of it, which is kind of why I'm so embarrassed, to be honest. At least I can turn the key off and it won't run on for more than a few seconds. That clutch and pressure plate got some serious abuse from popping that clutch to kill the motor. Since 2007. :shakehead:

I can feel some sloppiness in the drivetrain from that. But I'm not going to address that until this fuel system is fully sorted.

originalowner
09-15-2013, 01:06 PM
I really don't know what to say. I ask for input and thoughts, and what do I get? Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

I came here because I am just as passionate about these trucks as any of you, even more so in a lot of cases. I don't own one to do performance mods, because I drive one because they are so cheap to operate.

I'll just do what I think is best for me.

That said, I don't think this board will know how it worked out. I really want to share how my combination of parts will work, but if you guys don't really care, why should I?

Sorry guys.

BradMph
09-15-2013, 04:21 PM
Does this mean your not going to leave a tip? :)
Don't give up on the board...sometimes the right person for your question just hasn't arrived to answer it yet. We also try to emphasize that you do what is best for you. We always try to supply all the right tools to do the job, but it's hard to find all the right people to do every job. With your input, it helps make the board become more knowledgeable for the next person with a similar question. You may be that person that helps them.

originalowner
09-16-2013, 08:37 PM
Does this mean your not going to leave a tip? :)
Don't give up on the board...sometimes the right person for your question just hasn't arrived to answer it yet. We also try to emphasize that you do what is best for you. We always try to supply all the right tools to do the job, but it's hard to find all the right people to do every job. With your input, it helps make the board become more knowledgeable for the next person with a similar question. You may be that person that helps them.

Well that was kind of my point Brad. I ask for feedback for the P4070 and 12-804 pressure reg set-up, and all I get for almost a week is crickets chirping.

I'm like damn...

I guess I should have started a thread on intake icing.

I could jack-leg the shit out of it, but I was more interested in the regular user's thoughts on this particular set up- as opposed to "do what you want and let us know how it works out." I'm well past that point.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do just about anything, and since this is my truck we're talking about, I was sincere in asking for feedback in what I have planned. But sheesh all I hear is crickets. :(

Pretty sure this will work, all I'm looking for is a thumbs up or two...

camoit
09-16-2013, 09:09 PM
Sorry man, but I have been slammed lately. Sometimes I can't get to all the posts. They come pretty hot and heavy at times.
As far as that regulator I had problems with it creeping up on the pressure. I tossed it and went with a return style. The other problem I have now is under heavy throttle I loose pressure and the system shuts off. But that is probably from fuel loss during acceleration. So I need to jam a hole bunch more foam in the tank or add in a fuel well with trap doors. Holly told me it was because I did not have enough restriction in the system,,,, Huuu??? I thought that was what the regulator did was make a restriction. So I added in a restriction jet in the return line so I'm double regulated.

Like Brad said some times we can't get to all the posts or people just don't have that part in there truck. I can't say anything on the pump. Never used that one. A majority of the time I'm on here is spent tracking IP addresses and blocking the spammers from China. So many times I only go off of what I see in the side bar. If it grabs me then I'll take a look or if it has zero replies I'll at least try to point them in the correct direction. This thread is a post 80 so I just figured it was being worked on by at least 3 or more guys. Sorry.

originalowner
09-17-2013, 10:07 AM
Sorry man, but I have been slammed lately. Sometimes I can't get to all the posts. They come pretty hot and heavy at times.
As far as that regulator I had problems with it creeping up on the pressure. I tossed it and went with a return style. The other problem I have now is under heavy throttle I loose pressure and the system shuts off. But that is probably from fuel loss during acceleration. So I need to jam a hole bunch more foam in the tank or add in a fuel well with trap doors. Holly told me it was because I did not have enough restriction in the system,,,, Huuu??? I thought that was what the regulator did was make a restriction. So I added in a restriction jet in the return line so I'm double regulated.

Like Brad said some times we can't get to all the posts or people just don't have that part in there truck. I can't say anything on the pump. Never used that one. A majority of the time I'm on here is spent tracking IP addresses and blocking the spammers from China. So many times I only go off of what I see in the side bar. If it grabs me then I'll take a look or if it has zero replies I'll at least try to point them in the correct direction. This thread is a post 80 so I just figured it was being worked on by at least 3 or more guys. Sorry.

Don't take it the wrong way...it wasn't meant that way. From the set-ups I have been exposed to here, I haven't seen anyone yet with that set-up. A few are running the Carter P4070, but without a pressure reg. The ads say "No pressure regulator needed", but I'm calling BS on that as I mentioned earlier. The stock motor with that flow output- seems to me it would just nearly choke a stock motor with way too much fuel. If if reduces pressure by limiting a little flow, why is that a bad thing? It's 70gph for pete's sake. AND THE MOTOR IS STOCK.

I just really want to get this thing right. I've run it long enough with a stopgap fuel system in place.

It gets more than enough fuel with a stock pump and no reg and the stock pump max output is 4.2 psi. Running the stock pump with a real Weber for over a month has proven this to me.

The Carter P4070 runs 3-6 psi and that is way more pressure than needed- 4.2 is too much.

That is the crux of my question.

Inglese is the one who only recommends a Holley 12-804 with Webers. The last time I talked to him, he indicated he would try to answer any question I had. I may call him back and pick his brain a little more. I understand he would be guessing too, to be honest. An educated guess, but a highly educated guess is my take.

camoit
09-17-2013, 04:58 PM
The holly regulator might work with the carter pump as it is a low pressure pump to start with. The one I used was a holly pump that builds 15 psi so I was forced to go with the return style regulator. The one that came in the box was just like the 12-804.
My pump is a holly blue and man o man does it pump fuel. The regulator that came in the box slowly creped up on the pressure thats why I went with the return style. It is 4.5 - 9 psi I must run 6 psi.

originalowner
09-18-2013, 01:49 PM
The holly regulator might work with the carter pump as it is a low pressure pump to start with. The one I used was a holly pump that builds 15 psi so I was forced to go with the return style regulator. The one that came in the box was just like the 12-804.
My pump is a holly blue and man o man does it pump fuel. The regulator that came in the box slowly creped up on the pressure thats why I went with the return style. It is 4.5 - 9 psi I must run 6 psi.

From my research it looks like the 12-803 is 4.5-9 psi and the 12-804 is 1-4 psi. Both are adjustable within the stated ranges.

So you have the 12-803 in other words- but they look identical.

My feeling is- like I stated earlier the 12-804 seems tailor made for the Weber DGV on stock 4cyl. motors.

1) P4070 mounts is the rear on a mount made to fit one of the bed mounts. Electric fuel pump in the rear because it "pushes" fuel up to the motor. Use a stock filter before the fuel enters the pump, and you can also use the existing fuel supply line.

2) Mount the 12-804 on the LF inner fender. The 'bottom' of the reg is for the main line from the tank- (it is clearly labeled "in" whereas the other 3 fittings are labeled "out".)

3) Of those 3 outputs, one goes straight to the carb (I can easily put a simple in-line filter in that line,) one houses the fuel pressure mini-gauge that I bought, and the 3rd is just plugged off.

4) The return line is already hooked up to the carb.

That is the set-up I envision and that I think will work perfect on a stock motor.

Another part of the problem was the instructions that came with the counterfeit Weber. If I remember right, the instructions just said to plug it off. :bang:

That's where my 'run-on' problem came from. Hooking up a return line cured 90% of that problem- that's why I feel that the needle and seat is still being "over pressurized" and why I am still getting idle fluxuation in varying degrees.

I am still getting a slight degree of surging that I feel is idle circuit related as opposed to main circuit related. This will also be corrected when the system pressure is at or below 3psi.

davidandrew
09-19-2013, 04:58 AM
Try 4-7 psi. 4-7 psi is better.

originalowner
09-19-2013, 07:11 AM
Try 4-7 psi. 4-7 psi is better.

With a join date of today, I have to believe you are trolling.

Or may even be a regular user who is playing in his internet sandbox...

Troll.

camoit
09-19-2013, 12:28 PM
the 12-803 look identical. Just different pressure. Of course what I have now is just larger in all aspects.

Engine run on is from the throttle plates being open to far at idle, and just a touch rich when you shut it off. IF it does not have the idle cut off solenoid it's a larger problem. Mine was that way. Many times a surge can be from being ether to lean or to rich. If it's an idle surge that is the problem and you need to preform the lean drop.

I have the factory Weber manual in the manual section in the first gen manual. But I would guess that the Webertation manual is a straight copy from weber.
Have you preformed a lean drop since you put on the new regulator? I want to say they describe it in the weber manual. If not it is in the UTI training manual with step by step instructions. There is also a thread on how to do it in the archive, and I might have placed it on this board at one time. Just search lean drop in the archive.
Then again there was no inter net when I hooked up my weber so I just ran the thing from the stock mechanical pump. Worked fine for me. But there were problems I never cared about.

My regulator is identical just higher pressure. If you don't have the bypass line does the pressure creep up on you tell it's at the pump max pressure. That was my problem. After about 25 seconds of running the pump the pressure would clime to 15 PSI.

originalowner
09-19-2013, 03:03 PM
the 12-803 look identical. Just different pressure. Of course what I have now is just larger in all aspects.

Engine run on is from the throttle plates being open to far at idle, and just a touch rich when you shut it off. IF it does not have the idle cut off solenoid it's a larger problem. Mine was that way. Many times a surge can be from being ether to lean or to rich. If it's an idle surge that is the problem and you need to preform the lean drop.

I have the factory Weber manual in the manual section in the first gen manual. But I would guess that the Webertation manual is a straight copy from weber.
Have you preformed a lean drop since you put on the new regulator? I want to say they describe it in the weber manual. If not it is in the UTI training manual with step by step instructions. There is also a thread on how to do it in the archive, and I might have placed it on this board at one time. Just search lean drop in the archive.
Then again there was no inter net when I hooked up my weber so I just ran the thing from the stock mechanical pump. Worked fine for me. But there were problems I never cared about.

My regulator is identical just higher pressure. If you don't have the bypass line does the pressure creep up on you tell it's at the pump max pressure. That was my problem. After about 25 seconds of running the pump the pressure would clime to 15 PSI.

I'm still running the stock mechanical with no pressure reg. Most of the driveability issues I have have been greatly diminished with the Spanish made Weber install. But there are still a few niggling issues that remain.

Nobody here has that same setup, (stock 2.6, P4070, Holly 12-804) so I thought I might be on my own with it.

Trying to adjust the idle mix with too much fuel pressure is an exercise in futility. No other way to put it.

I do believe somebody was right when they said the Webers get real fussy with any fuel pressure over 3psi.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, but I would bet my left nut it's over 3psi. Everything else on the truck has worn minimally, I don't see why the mechanical pump would be any different.

Thanks for your input, Camoit.

camoit
09-19-2013, 04:01 PM
The thing with the mechanical pump is it's a spring that makes the pressure. All the cam does is, reset the diaphragm so the spring can push it. I have seen springs do strange things. But your correct in thinking that you will be the first to have that configuration of parts. But to me a pump is a pump. It comes down to the flow it can run. A restriction is what makes the pressure.

Try the lean drop and see what it does with the set up you are using now. It may just fix all and then your done.

pennyman1
09-19-2013, 06:27 PM
I know you don't want to believe it, but the mechanical pump will cause the problems you are having, and a reg won't fix it. The Weber is too sensitive to the pulsation of the mechanical pump because of its close proximity to the carb. If your pump is only putting out 3-4 psi, it is almost dead, as a new pump puts out 9-13 PSI. I have run Webers for over 30 years, and installed them on several trucks - if you want the rest of the issues to go away, go with an electric pump - you won't regret it.

BradMph
09-19-2013, 07:23 PM
P4070, Holly 12-804

I have that exact same device setup, lol. Your not alone in this world. Though I run a 2.0L engine with a header but shouldn't make a big difference. I also had to adjust the pressure on the regulator to almost full open to get the proper pressure and flow I wanted. I also removed the 2nd fuel filter I put in right in front of the carb. It was a glass see through one that friggin unthreaded itself because of a bad thread tapping job at the parts factory and I'm sure could of burned the truck down. Stupid manufactures.

originalowner
09-20-2013, 09:45 AM
I know you don't want to believe it, but the mechanical pump will cause the problems you are having, and a reg won't fix it. The Weber is too sensitive to the pulsation of the mechanical pump because of its close proximity to the carb. If your pump is only putting out 3-4 psi, it is almost dead, as a new pump puts out 9-13 PSI. I have run Webers for over 30 years, and installed them on several trucks - if you want the rest of the issues to go away, go with an electric pump - you won't regret it.

Pennyman, I have a factory shop manual for 1989 and it says that the factory pump puts out 2.4-4.2 psi. (Page 14.2 in the factory manual.) However that is equivalent to 20-29 kPa or the metric measurement as you know.

But I think you're right, the proximity to the carb is the problem, not the psi that the stock pump delivers.

I've already bought both the 12-804 and P4070- I am just waiting for my chosen wrench to finish putting up his shop. He's doing the metal building thing- the slab has been poured and he's in the process of getting the building. He already has a lift.

Thanks for all of your inputs guys.

I can't help it these original parts on these things last forever. LOL

camoit
09-26-2013, 11:38 PM
Don't forget the flow the pump can put out. I wonder what the flow in GPH is on the stock pump. An electric pump will have a higher flow.

originalowner
10-04-2013, 10:22 AM
Don't forget the flow the pump can put out. I wonder what the flow in GPH is on the stock pump. An electric pump will have a higher flow.

The Carter is 70 gph. The shop manual does not specify a specific fuel output for the factory pump, just the outlet psi.

70 gallons per hour for non-EFI should be plenty for this application.

I need to check with Mitsu and see if the fuel pump gasket is available separately. If it is, I can use it to have a cover plate made where the factory pump is mounted. I have leftover sheet steel for the electric pump mount. I only used half of it. :thumbup:

camoit
10-04-2013, 04:13 PM
Rockauto.com has the stock gasket. You can get them from NAPA also.

originalowner
10-05-2013, 05:16 AM
Rockauto.com has the stock gasket. You can get them from NAPA also.

If those two parts outlets have it available, then I should be able to get it through CarQuest.

Thank you.

arford
03-05-2014, 01:15 AM
Ummm So how did this end? Did the parts get installed? Are the problems gone? :shrug:

originalowner
03-19-2014, 09:40 AM
Ummm So how did this end? Did the parts get installed? Are the problems gone? :shrug:

Go to the 2nd Gen electric pump install thread. It ended well.

IMO that thread should be pinned but what do I know.

Try to ask for help or give help and you get treated like an interloper.

That's been my experience. Not in the clique I guess. Or more likely the owners of this site really don't care that much.

I wanted to put up a thread about what I learned in jetting and adjusting the Weber carb but the reactions to what I have put up so far are so tepid I don't even want to bother. It's why I had to figure it out myself for the most part. Then you try to help others and the thread gets buried.

I feel like I am talking to myself most times.

Sorry for sounding so harsh but it's true.

royster
03-19-2014, 06:51 PM
Much sympathy here, seen and experienced a bit of that myself.

Kaos731
03-19-2014, 08:41 PM
lol I am new and I've experienced crickets to my posts for help as well. LOL

I guess its just the way things are..

I'm glad to see that everything went well and I will be taking a similar trip as you did with converting to a weber/electric pump/Regulator set up soon.

Only question I have is that I have seen mention of an addition of an "Oil Pressure regulator switch" Why do we need to install one of those?
Does it replace the oil pressure idiot light in the dash, or can i just omit that part of the conversion?

originalowner
03-20-2014, 07:08 AM
lol I am new and I've experienced crickets to my posts for help as well. LOL

I guess its just the way things are..

I'm glad to see that everything went well and I will be taking a similar trip as you did with converting to a weber/electric pump/Regulator set up soon.

Only question I have is that I have seen mention of an addition of an "Oil Pressure regulator switch" Why do we need to install one of those?
Does it replace the oil pressure idiot light in the dash, or can i just omit that part of the conversion?

The oil pressure cut off switch accomplishes 2 things-

1. It will turn the pump off if (God forbid) you get in a wreck and are unable to switch the ignition key off. In other words it turns the electric pump off when the oil pressure drops to '0'. It does not affect the warning lite or gauge depending on what you have.

2. It's nice to have one if you are sitting in the truck for a period of time and want to listen to the radio w/o the engine running.

They are both good reasons to have a oil pressure cut-off switch installed but I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I am on disability from strokes so the truck is not used that much but I will get around to it eventually as 'something to do' LOL.

royster
03-20-2014, 07:47 AM
Much sympathy here, seen and experienced a bit of that myself.


In any Divine Judgement, we will not be held in contempt for what we said, but for that which we refused to share.

In my world, we help each other with the basics, first, before indulging in privelage.

I understand this is off-topic, but I thank you for bringing this issue up: it is a conspicuous...but unspoken...frustration of this forum. (Other forums, too, from my experience).

camoit
03-20-2014, 03:34 PM
Go to the 2nd Gen electric pump install thread. It ended well.
IMO that thread should be pinned but what do I know.
Try to ask for help or give help and you get treated like an interloper.
That's been my experience. Not in the clique I guess. Or more likely the owners of this site really don't care that much.
I wanted to put up a thread about what I learned in jetting and adjusting the Weber carb but the reactions to what I have put up so far are so tepid I don't even want to bother. It's why I had to figure it out myself for the most part. Then you try to help others and the thread gets buried.
I feel like I am talking to myself most times.
Sorry for sounding so harsh but it's true.


What thread should be pinned? I can't read every post. We rely on people letting us know if there is a good post that needs to be stuck. So if you find somthing you need to let one of us know.

There is no "Owner" of the site. It's totally ran by volunteers. There is zero money to myself or anybody else. It all goes back to the board and keeping it on the net or coming up with things for the board.
If you want to see a thread get buried try pirate 4x4. They have 987,714, Threads 14,349,586, Posts and 262,650 Members. Things change on there so fast it will boggle your mind. Here we have about 60 people that come through every day. Out of that we have about 10 that come through on a regular basis. From that we have about 4 that try to help out one way or the other. Everyone on here knows there own truck and what has happened to them in the past. All anybody does is try to tell people about what worked for them and what may be there problem.
I can add sub forums like the archive had. It does make it just a bit easer to weed through and see where new posts are. We also at the top you will find a drop down menu that says My Posts. It will show you just that. Posts and threads.


Much sympathy here, seen and experienced a bit of that myself.


In my world, we help each other with the basics, first, before indulging in privelage.
I understand this is off-topic, but I thank you for bringing this issue up: it is a conspicuous...but unspoken...frustration of this forum. (Other forums, too, from my experience).


It's the nature of social media. The problem is how do you get people to engage in somthing. Read and help someone when more and more we see the "ME" attitude like FB. Look at me, I just drank a crap load of beer and blue chunks all over the side walk. See my picture, I'm famous in my own mind. Don't for get to fallow me on twitter, so you can fallow along every minute of my day. Like we give a crap what some 20 somthing is doing in Austin Texas all day long.
Sorry for the rant. But we have a small niche group of people here. There aren't many of these trucks around. Many times you see them being run into the ground by the border brothers and they don't care about there truck or any forum. They would rather crash it into the back of someone and run off. You would be surprised how many people sign up for just one day to try and get what they need from the board and then never come back again or even make a post.
Around here the donators are the ones that are more inclined to engage. They found out that they like helping and want to keep the board on the net. It's like a big funnel. People start out on the rim. Get sucked in and become a donator. Then life changes and they just fall out the bottom. Some times they come back, some times they don't. They sell the truck and then don't ever come back. You never know. It's always changing on here.

royster
03-20-2014, 03:56 PM
It's the nature of social media.

It most assuredly is, camoit, and we have to accept things as they are, I guess. Being able to speak up once in a while is good for the mind.


Sorry for the rant.

No need to say yer sorry: "Being able to speak up once in a while is good for the mind." It also helps us keep balance.

And everyone can move on.

originalowner
03-20-2014, 05:16 PM
What thread should be pinned? I can't read every post. We rely on people letting us know if there is a good post that needs to be stuck. So if you find somthing you need to let one of us know.

There is no "Owner" of the site. It's totally ran by volunteers. There is zero money to myself or anybody else. It all goes back to the board and keeping it on the net or coming up with things for the board.
If you want to see a thread get buried try pirate 4x4. They have 987,714, Threads 14,349,586, Posts and 262,650 Members. Things change on there so fast it will boggle your mind. Here we have about 60 people that come through every day. Out of that we have about 10 that come through on a regular basis. From that we have about 4 that try to help out one way or the other. Everyone on here knows there own truck and what has happened to them in the past. All anybody does is try to tell people about what worked for them and what may be there problem.
I can add sub forums like the archive had. It does make it just a bit easer to weed through and see where new posts are. We also at the top you will find a drop down menu that says My Posts. It will show you just that. Posts and threads.






It's the nature of social media. The problem is how do you get people to engage in somthing. Read and help someone when more and more we see the "ME" attitude like FB. Look at me, I just drank a crap load of beer and blue chunks all over the side walk. See my picture, I'm famous in my own mind. Don't for get to fallow me on twitter, so you can fallow along every minute of my day. Like we give a crap what some 20 somthing is doing in Austin Texas all day long.
Sorry for the rant. But we have a small niche group of people here. There aren't many of these trucks around. Many times you see them being run into the ground by the border brothers and they don't care about there truck or any forum. They would rather crash it into the back of someone and run off. You would be surprised how many people sign up for just one day to try and get what they need from the board and then never come back again or even make a post.
Around here the donators are the ones that are more inclined to engage. They found out that they like helping and want to keep the board on the net. It's like a big funnel. People start out on the rim. Get sucked in and become a donator. Then life changes and they just fall out the bottom. Some times they come back, some times they don't. They sell the truck and then don't ever come back. You never know. It's always changing on here.

The 2nd Gen electric fuel pump install thread, the one I put up with photos of the install.

Sorry for the rant, man.

This truck is my only transportation and as you can tell I am over-the-top anal with it. It is the only vehicle I ever bought new. (And it wasn't brand new, it was a demo).

Perhaps I get frustrated too easy with the low amount of traffic here or am too idealistic about human nature in general. I do not have a mechanic's background. I have a dealership service writer background- ASE certified service consultant with over 20 years as a writer for high line European, domestic and Asian makers. I won awards at most every place I worked which included an all expense paid 10 day trip to England from Jaguar when I worked for them as a writer. There is not much I haven't seen- my general automotive knowledge is extensive- much more than my mechanic's knowledge.

I am on disability from the strokes, cannot work a job because of them so therefore I have plenty of time to volunteer to this site. Send me a PM if you think I can help.

Thanks.

camoit
03-20-2014, 07:52 PM
I need a link to the thread.
There are 225 of them and 2 with the word pump in it. One has the word oil the other I don't think is yours. Just drop a line in the shout box as that is the first place I look. From there I scan the side bar working my way down to the admin control panel. From there it's to the anti spam system to update IP addresses for the spammers that were able to register. And then it's off the stack of emails from people trying to ask questions by not being a member. They all get the same response. Dear BLA BLA. this is a question best asked on the MightyRam50.net web site. You can register fro free through this link. bla bla. Some I don't even bother answering because the question is just SOOO stupid. I have a truck it makes a ticking sound under the valve cover thing. Do you think I should adjust the valve? NO SELL THE TRUCK>>>

Wow looking back I have been on the board since 2010. But I know there are others that have fallowed this board for longer. Pennyman has been on since 2009

pennyman1
03-28-2014, 08:16 PM
and longer than that through the various versions preceding this one. It is tough to keep any forum going, especially one with dwindling vehicles that were not mainstream to start. But this is the way to keep the ones that people care about alive and making them better. If we don't capture these things now, they could be lost forever. Being one of the people on here with the longest ownership of a D-50 (bought Geronimo new in August 1980) I have lived with him all these years and learned a lot about the truck and myself. These trucks were ahead of their time, but they can be finicky, and have their quirks like anything else. I have owned many trucks in those years besides Geronimo, but he is the only one I have kept. I have nothing to hide when it comes to my knowledge on these trucks and I offer my advice whenever asked. He has lasted through my starting a business, moving all kinds of ridiculous things, outlasted my marriage, and is still with me today. You might say I am in this for the looooong haul - 33 years and counting.

budman
08-24-2014, 02:43 PM
Very well put, I wish i had the time and knowledge to help out.This site has helped me out a lot!1 I'm not on here all the time but when i do get on here I just hunt for what I am looking for and usually find my answers.The weber fuel pump regulator install has helped me a lot,different situations require different fixes,I have the weber 32/36 and cart 4070 and the holley regulator,and just bypassed the regulator,because there seemed to be un even pressures even when adjusting it all the time.Now for my truick it seems to run better now.It's a 87 2.6 4x4. Thanks everyone for all your imput!1

geezer101
08-24-2014, 03:48 PM
...maybe these posts should be redirected to roysters "interstates anonymous". Even though they are irrelevant to this thread title (facet electric fuel pump) they are noteworthy. The best asset a forum like this has is community. I guarantee when a guy runs into a problem or has a question there are 5 members going through everything from their own garage and resource material to digging up the gems from the junk on the great WWW. And the thing that has impressed be most about mightyram50 is not just what it has to offer, but also what it lacks - trolls. Haven't found a single one lurking under a bridge anywhere here. I joined another US based site while trying to resurrect my wife's Honda elite 50 and pulled out due to one particularly ugly troller that was nothing more than a cancer to what was otherwise a good site.

FrancisD50
03-26-2018, 08:03 PM
I am kinda late to this thread, I just picked up a 1988
ram 50 with the 2,0. I found a company that rebuilt my stock carb with lifetime warrantee. I decided to go with the
holly 1-4 psi electric fuel pump, My question is if I eliminate the mechanical fuel pump, how do i connect the furl return line to the tank, or do I just cap it off?

geezer101
03-26-2018, 11:23 PM
I am kinda late to this thread, I just picked up a 1988
ram 50 with the 2,0. I found a company that rebuilt my stock carb with lifetime warrantee. I decided to go with the
holly 1-4 psi electric fuel pump, My question is if I eliminate the mechanical fuel pump, how do i connect the furl return line to the tank, or do I just cap it off?

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/6975-upgrade-from-mechanical-to-electrical-fuel-pump?p=60295&viewfull=1#post60295